Originally Posted by Beth

I do think we mostly agree on this topic, although, I don't think we should talk to our brethren like this. We can reason together.

Jerry has shown himself to be Biblically sound and quite intelligent, even though I don't agree with him on the topic of divorce and re-marriage.

It looks like I need to apologize to you, (browilder61). I now see that Jerry first told you that you have poor comprehension skills. I'm not sure how it all started, but we can debate this without talking down to each other.

I do agree with you on the meaning of fornication! Married people definitely can and do commit fornication, and since they are married this is also called adultery.

There was no malice intended.If you saw the post he made about me having "poor comprehension skills" and left it at that. I guess because he thought I misconstrued what he said about what fornication is "generally speaking". All I was saying is that fornication as defined in the Bible is what it is. He didn't say that, he just gave one side of it. I realize that is what most of the secular world and some Christians think would define fornication in a generalized sense like that, I use to think of it that way too. But we are not talking about what something is "generally" when it comes to a biblical term. He drew "first blood". I'm not nearly as worried about miscontruing what another man says, as I am misconstruing what the KJV says within context. If his comment towards me is based from a misrepresentation of what the Bible is saying, and I miscontrued that, through him, then I apologize. But if it is soley based off of misconstruing him , well if he can make comments like that towards me and not retract it, or care what I think, then so can I. Why do you think it is that Way of Life, and others who believe that there's no grounds for divorce except death, "dis" other Christians that have been divorced, and especially the ones that hold offices and are pastors, and are doing great works for the Lord, but all they can see is the divorce in their past?

Originally Posted by browilder61

Why do you think it is that Way of Life, and others who believe that there's no grounds for divorce except death, "dis" other Christians that have been divorced, and especially the ones that hold offices and are pastors, and are doing great works for the Lord, but all they can see is the divorce in their past?

I'm not sure why this happens? I think it's a touchy subject that causes a lot of pain. Maybe those that have not been through a divorce don't feel it's important to go into depth on this topic through the Bible. It's easier to just say divorce is sin, no matter who is the one that carries out the divorce.

I'm sure my Pastor would not understand the topic as well as he does if he had not been through it. I guarantee you that if he would have come to the conclusion through the scriptures that he should not be a Pastor, he would not be a Pastor.

What I really think is strange is when some say that if a person was divorced, (no matter the circumstance) they should never be able to marry someone else until their spouse dies. I once asked, "what about the person that has a live in relationship, (intimate) that never married the person and then they split up, should they be able to marry someone?" The answer was "yes"

I've read instances where pastors before they were saved have been in jail for crimes, and some lived a life of fornication before they got saved, got saved, married, and had one wife for a while before they became a pastor. No one seemed to have a problem with that. But then one man I read about was found to have had a divorce on his record, before he was saved, wasn't promiscuous before he married, but because he had that unforgivable divorce, BEFORE he was saved, was given a hard time, and I'm not talking about Dr. Ruckman either. You're right it is a very sensitive subject. Divorce is bad, there's no nice way to look at it, and it is something that people who aren't saved have a strong conviction about. But as bad as it is people do get divorced, and scripture gives two grounds for it (Matt.19:9 ; 1 Cor7:15) and in those 2 cases, the spouse is free to remarry without committing adultery(1 Cor 7:28). Passages like Rom 7: 1-3 and 1 Tim 3:2 have a divorce read into them.

[George]

Originally Posted by Beth

Thank you George! The only reason I have an understanding of this topic is because my Pastor preaches on this along with the full counsel of God.

My Pastor and his wife are both divorced. My Pastors first wife left him with the kids to pursue a career. My Pastors wife's first husband left her with the kids, to pursue another woman and alcoholism. Together they put together two broken families and this was done Biblically.

They were turned away from many Churches because of this. They were not able to serve even in the littlest of capacities. Can you believe this? I couldn't. They tried to talk of the scriptures and the reasons why they were free to marry each other, but the Churches would not hear of it. All they knew is that divorce was sin and they just couldn't take the time to put it all together.

Praise the Lord, they started their own Church. The Ministry of the Way of Life directory of Fundamental Independent Churches will not put our Church in the listing because my Pastor has been divorced. What a shame, but praise the Lord I found them anyway.

I know many Churches won't even speak on the topic, so the flock remains ignorant. We can't take verse 11 of 1 Cor ch 7 and just come to the conclusion that if you divorce you are never to remarry except to get back together with you spouse. We must read 1 Cor ch. 7 in it's entirety to get the full picture.

In 47 years of being married the word "divorce" never once entered into my heart or mind. I am one of the fortunate ones that never had to go through that gut wrenching experience. But I have seen 2 very close Christian friends of mine go through bitter and hatefilled divorces and it nearly drove them crazy. Both of them did everything that they possibly could to reconcile and save their marriages and both of the wives would have none of it.

What does a man do (if he is called by God) if his wife deserts him (for whatever reason)? I know what they say: He is to stay "single" until she dies, but if after she dies and he marries again he still would have been the husband of two (2) wives! There's no getting around that - the Scripture says: "the husband of one wife".

I find it very strange that in the Fundamentalist's circles that the "unforgivable sin" is divorce (no matter what the circumstances). Some of these Christians have little or no idea about human nature, or the burden and struggle a single parent goes through trying to raise children without a "helpmate".

Those "brethren" who judge these people and ostrcize them, better hope and pray that God never puts them through that trial and heartache!

[pbiwolski]

AMEN!

[Brother Tim]

Regarding the words "fornication" and "adultery": (emphasis mine)

Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Why would the Scriptures distinguish between the two words if they were interchangeable?

Secondly, it is dangerous to use anecdotal examples to define doctrine. For every situation where from the human point-of-view things have worked out, there are many where they have not. Anytime we violate God's perfect design for marriage, there are consequences, regardless of how "right" it appears.

Where do these who alter God's instructions to match their circumstance draw the line for others whose situation is just slightly different than theirs?

[Brother Tim]

There is a pastor of a local church who as a youth pastor at a previous church had a 2 year physical relationship with a teenager (15 at the start) while he was married. He broke it off and soon left the ministry. He never told anyone including his wife. After a few years, the church where he currently is called him as pastor. The past was not revealed. About 3 years went by, and the girl finally told her parents who told the police, who brought him in for questioning. The statute of limitation had run out, so he could not be charged, but the word got out. After confessing to his family and church, he offered to step down. The majority of the church asked him to stay because the church had grown dramatically while he had been there. The church was SBC, and the local association after meeting, dropped the church from the association because they would not remove the pastor, or at least require him to have counseling.

The issue concerning the girl and her parents is now being handled in civil court. The church continues to function with some loss of members.

Based on the responses given in this thread, I would be curious as to what you would do in this situation.

[Luke]

It's a completely different situation. The guy is/was a pedophile. He was not married to the girl. He did not show remorse. He only confessed when confronted with the truth, and even then, did not seem to care all that much.

Originally Posted by George

What does a man do (if he is called by God) if his wife deserts him (for whatever reason)? I know what they say: He is to stay "single" until she dies, but if after she dies and he marries again he still would have been the husband of two (2) wives! There's no getting around that - the Scripture says: "the husband of one wife". (

I believe the meaning is that a Pastor is not to have more than one wife at a time. Also that the Pastor is to be faithful to his wife. In the case of a Pastor that has a wife desert him, he is no longer bound and is to live in peace. I don't think this means that he is still married to the woman that deserted him. I believe my Pastor is married to one wife and is faithful to his one wife.

If a Pastor has a wife desert him and he is now unmarried, he should remain unmarried. Although it is better to marry than to burn.

My Pastor was left with 8 children. My Pastors wife was left with 4 children. They combined to a family of 12 children and made two families whole again.