[George]

Aloha John,

Thanks for giving us some info about yourself and I appreciate your explanation in your last Post. As of late we have had quite a few "troublemakers" join the Forum and I for one may be a bit "edgy".

I was extremely concerned when the issue of water Baptism came up, because I know from past experience that no "profit" ever comes from a "discussion" about it. Christians on both sides of the issue hold very strong "convictions" about the matter and neither one is going to "budge an inch" - so WHY BOTHER?

I will reply to each of your following statements to give you an idea where I am coming from.

* "Genesis 6 is about angels taking human wives producing giants."
{I am in agreement with you - but I never make a big deal about this issue.}

* "The "baptism in the spirit" as practiced by charismatics produces demonic oppression."
{I would put it: The "baptism in the spirit" as practiced by charismatics can produce oppression by "evil spirits ("devils") and possibly even "possession" by evil spirits ("devils") as well.}

* "Homosexuals are actually demon possessed."
{I don't know of any Scriptures that support your view, but I do know for sure that our God hates SODOMY & SODOMITES, and there is no Scriptural doubt about that - for sure!}

* "The two witnesses are clearly Moses and Elijah."
{I am in agreement with you - but, again, I never make a big deal about this issue.}

* "Women pastors are in rebellion against God."
{I am in strongly in agreement with you and I would (and do) make a big deal out of it.}

* "Most "Christian" music is of the devil."
{I don't know this for sure (Scripture?), but most of it is surely - "CARNAL"}

* "Many Christian women dress no better than prostitutes."
{The way that many "Christian" women in the Western world "DRESS" is in indicative of a much more serious "problem" - and that is an unwillingness (on the part of many Western "Christian" women) to be in "submission" to God's words when it comes to anything that they "FEEL" is "right in their own eyes"! Humanism!}

"I cannot tell you how many times one or more of those positions has caused a near riot amongst other believers which I find quite surprising. I cannot help but wonder if that reaction comes from a very agitated fleshly nature. The current topic in my mind is no more controversial than any of those other topics."

I pretty much agree with you, with the exception of your last statement: "The current topic in my mind is no more controversial than any of those other topics. " You may think or feel this way (in your "mind"), but there are fellow brothers in Christ that are highly "offended" by your (and Tony's) position on this issue.

I expressed my "take" on this issue early on, but although I am in disagreement with both you & brother Tony, I believe you have a right to your convictions - as long as you don't "push it" too hard here. This is one of those "issues" that is not going to go away until the Lord Jesus Christ straightens us all out on our "doctrine" at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Until then we have "bigger fish to fry" and more important things to do than to continually re-hash an issue that has proven to be of NO benefit or profit to the brethren; and instead of edifying us it has only served to DIVIDE US.

[chette777]

broTim,

Stepahnos is in Corinth not Philippi.

yeah I guess he may have alluded to them. the point being He didn't make baptism an importance for list keeping as we do today.

[chette777]

BroP and FredO,

All is written for us but not to us. Matthew 28 is one that needs to be rightly divided and ask:

To whom Jesus is immediately speaking to?

The Apostles only no 500 (they are at a private place alone) Mt 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

What Baptism Is he Referring to?

The only Baptism they knew of was John's Baptism. after Christ's resurrection he does not give any example of a new type or way of Baptism. Paul was the one who showed a new Baptism one by the Spirit that places us in the Body of Christ. Every example of Baptism up unto Matt 28 is John's baptism and so is that of Acts 2 and Acts 8.

John 3:22-23 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Joh 4:1-2 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

What are they to teach?

The commandment of Jesus that he taught during his earthly ministry. Here are just a few

Mt 10:5 ¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Mt 5:21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33 ¶ Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away
Mt 5:43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Lu 9:1 ¶ Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.
5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Joh 15:9 ¶ As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

The Kingdom Gospel is this: the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand also in these contexts is the Kingdom of God in Luke

There are actually a lot of commands of Jesus but these will suffice.

Remember there are hundreds of commands of Christ and you cannot pick and choose, Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe ALL things whatsoever I have commanded you

just from the above verses you and I will have a hard time.

[buzzoff1031]

I just realized I voted but didn't comment. I believe absolutely in believers' baptism. There are scriptures I don't yet understand about baptism. But I'm getting there!

Originally Posted by chette777

BroP and FredO,

All is written for us but not to us. Matthew 28 is one that needs to be rightly divided and ask:

To whom Jesus is immediately speaking to?

The Apostles only no 500 (they are at a private place alone) Mt 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

What Baptism Is he Referring to?

The only Baptism they knew of was John's Baptism. after Christ's resurrection he does not give any example of a new type or way of Baptism. Paul was the one who showed a new Baptism one by the Spirit that places us in the Body of Christ. Every example of Baptism up unto Matt 28 is John's baptism and so is that of Acts 2 and Acts 8.[B]

Chette, I'm sorry brother but I see nothing in your post that changes my point from post no. 168. I hear you, but sorry I don't see it that way Chette. John's baptism was never instructed in Matt. 28. The baptism Christ speaks of is in the name of the "Father Son and Holy Ghost."

No one had ever made a comment like that anywhere in the entire spectrum of Biblical history. If you can find another place in the Bible before this time where someone was baptized in the name of the "Father Son and Holy Ghost," please show me, but it's not there brother.

John's baptism was PRE-RESURRECTION and was never in the name of the "Father Son and Holy Ghost," per Matt. 28. You won't ever find John baptizing anyone in that manner, anywhere in the Bible. I don't mean to argue. We will have to agree to disagree on this, for me it's just not that complicated.

[chette777]

Oh it seems your nit picking the issue. what baptism did the 11 apostles know of?

The instruction to do so in the name of father Son and Holy Ghost does not change the type of baptism.

By what authority did John Baptize them?

All three person are the Godhead-the authority is God Nothing has changed from pre resurrection to post resurrection as far as the type of Baptism as concerning the 11 Apostles.

Originally Posted by chette777

Oh it seems your nit picking the issue. what baptism did the 11 apostles know of? The instruction to do so in the name of father Son and Holy Ghost does not change the type of baptism... All three person are the Godhead-the authority is God Nothing has changed from pre resurrection to post resurrection as far as the type of Baptism as concerning the 11 Apostles.

LOL, no one is nitpicking anything. I would not go as far to say that you seem "obsessed" with John's baptism, but you are only one of a tiny handful of Christians I have ever seen hammering this position. Does it change the type of baptism? OF COURSE it changes the type of baptism. Their were similarities of course (water immersion) but the death, burial and resurrection of Christ CHANGED EVERYTHING. In fact, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT BELIEVER'S BAPTISM IS ALL ABOUT. That's why Paul clearly states:

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Romans 6:4

"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." Col. 2:12

Do you see John saying that anywhere in history? Nope. John NEVER SAID ANY OF THOSE THINGS about death and being raised from the dead, not even close. Do you see John baptizing people IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS? Can you find it? ...let me know.

Christ's believer's baptism is distinct in that it is TO ALL NATIONS and has always been reserved for those who RECEIVE THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST (Acts 2:41, Acts 8:35-38, Acts 16:29-33, Galatians 1:6-9) It's a simple as the nose on your face, for me it's not complicated and there isn't a flaw in it anywhere.

The change in baptism can be CLEARLY SEEN in Acts 19, when Paul said unto them, caps are mine...

"...Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS." (Acts 19:3-5)

I have made these comments for doctrinal clarity. I'm sorry brother, you can't find the baptism of John anywhere in the great commission, even if you had a microscope and a blow torch. I appreciate the discussion, and I'm glad we can both agree that believer's baptism is for today, and I certainly respect your views. I know you like to get the last word in, so have at it. But I'm not going to debate it with you further because I realize for some reason you seem to be kind of "hung up" on the baptism of John, and I have no desire to go there with you. God bless you friend as you continue to seek His truth on this issue.

[Fredoheaven]

I've been thinking so far how can simplicity become a perplexity. The command Matthew 28 and the practice of Acts 2 of water baptism are of exactly of todays age. John's baptism on the otherhand, is to be viewed in two ways:

1. Water unto repentance. This is a cutomarily used by John the Baptist in conjuction to the confession of sins. He indeed baptized water but unto repentance.

Matthew 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

2. Water unto identification and obedience. Christ who knew no sin, faithfully submitted to identify with his people and so to fulfill the righteousness thus was no longer a typical John's baptism of water.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Acts 2 recorded the very first application of Matthew 28. Why did Jesus not give an example to this? This is simply because he was giving an infallible proofs for 40 days about his resurrection. Many of his disciples were not actually believed he resurrected. Some doubted. The bible says Thomas doubted so that Christ needed to just convince them about his own resurection.

Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Acts 2 is the beginning of the proliferation of the gospel message and the great commission to baptized believers in the church age. This is in no way a John's baptism "unto repentance" but a total obedience to Christ command, in a least manner still subject to John's way of baptism when he baptized Christ for identification. Is Peter message of salvation a death, burial and resurrection? Absloutely yes. Peter preach the same message of the Gospel as with Paul (1 Cor 15). Acts 2 of water baptism to those who gladly received were an addition to them and were actually added by the Lord to the church. This addition to the church simply means it started during the Pentecost and it will end even to the end of this world. Christ, once again said" Go ye therefore... therefore is a conclusive word and I intend not to re-divide it beacuse clearly Christ divided it already.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

[chette777]

Romans 6 and Col 2 is speaking of spiritual baptism not water baptism. the two are not the same in any way shape or form except in symbolism. What you are looking at is symbolism. immersed in water = death and burial; raised from under the water = resurrection and newness of life. but Romans 6 is not water baptism. there is no water 10 verse any direction from Romans 6:4. In Col the symbolism is Christ death not water baptism.

The word baptized was used by Christ that had no likeness to water what so ever Matthew 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

And where in the world do you see the gospel of Christ preached in Acts 2:41? In all the previous verses Peter never told them Christ death was for their salvation or for forgiveness of sins or atonement for their sins. As a matter of fact and I quote,Acts 2 36-38 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
This is how Peter told them to get saved Repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus (not the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost either) for the remission of sins.

Tell me does that sound like the Gospel of Christ also known as the gospel of Grace to you? I think not. That is the same Gospel John the Baptist was preaching before Christ death "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins". It is called it the Gospel of the Kingdom

So if the Gospels Changed so did Baptism (which they did).

There are three Gospels found in the NT: Mat, Rom-Philemon, and Rev14
There are three Baptisms found in the NT: John's water baptism, Spirit Baptism, and baptism for the dead
There are three churches found in the NT: Pagan, Israel and the Body of Christ.

While I agree the body of Christ is in latent form in Acts two it is not fully revealed until Acts 10.

anyway I think most of this topic is covered in another thread somewhere if I am not mistaken.

[chette777]

Well there may be four baptisms in the NT if you consider the baptism unto Moses.

the point being those in Acts 2 were not being baptized in the likeness of Christs death, they were being baptized for the forgiveness of sins. They did not even hear the Gospel of Christ.