[Brother-Smith]

Thank You Forrest for your post!

God calls us to him by his word.
I have seen that pin prick many times while sharing the gospel of salvation by belief in Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Spread the word cause time is short.


Oh yeah, I also think that is why this issue is such a big deal in the body of Christ today. Satan is keeping the believers busy arguing with one another, rather than sharing the Gospel of Grace. I am praying to escape it, but I am surrounded on all sides with calvinist/Augustine ideology.

My 2 cents.

[George]

Aloha brother Gord,

Your Post #161 this Thread makes very little "sense". Most of the verses that you cited have little or nothing to do with what you are trying to prove. And those verses (that you cited) that may be related (in some small way) to the issue do not "prove" your personal convictions.

I have put together a short essay on some of the apparent "weaknesses" to be found in Calvinism (when compared to the Holy Scriptures); it is my sincere hope that you will prayerfully examine the Scriptures I have presented herein and compare them to the teachings of Calvinism.

The main “Weakness” of Calvinism = A Failure to rightly divide "the word of truth":


Calvinism Fails to DISCERN "who" is being spoken of in numerous Scriptures:

The following is a list of specific words (found in the Scriptures) that Calvinists use to “prove” their doctrines. The Bible words: “elect”, “election”, “elected”, “foreknew”, “foreknowledge”,“foreordained”,“ordain”,and“ordained”are cited with the corresponding verses and where they are found in the Bible. I have tried to “rightly divide” WHERE and to WHOM the words should be applied. If anyone is interested in searching out these Scriptures, the color code easily identifies to WHOM I believe the verses should be applied. I would encourage you to “search the Scriptures” to see whether those things that I have presented here are true or not:

The word: “ELECT”

In reference to GOD
Isaiah 42:1; 1Timothy 5:21; 1 Peter 2:6

In reference to ISRAEL {Jews - Hebrews}
Isaiah 45:4; Isaiah 65:9; Isaiah 65:22; Matthew 24:22; Matthew 24; Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:20; Mark 13:22; Mark 13:27; Luke 18:7

In reference to THE CHURCH {Born Again – Saved}
Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 John 1:1; 2 John 1:13

According to the Scriptures, the "elect" can be:THE LORD; or Israel (Jews - Hebrews); or the Church (i.e.genuine born again children of God) depending entirely on the context of the verses where the word occurs. The word "elect" is NOT always in reference to born again children of God. The failure to “rightly divide”, i.e. identify who is being spoken of, or who the word applies to leads to the HOMOGENIZING (“Harmonizing”) of the Holy words of God - where clear distinctions in the Scriptures become “blurred” or “lost” altogether; which inevitably leads to FALSE DOCTRINE and HERESY!

The word: “ELECTION”

In reference to ISRAEL {Jews - Hebrews}
Romans 9: 1-33 [vs. 11]; Romans 11:5; Romans 11:7; Romans 11:28

In reference to THE CHURCH {Born Again – Saved}
1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Peter 1:10

The word: “ELECTED”

In reference to THE CHURCH {Born Again – Saved}
1 Peter 5:13

The word: “FOREKNEW”

In reference to ISRAEL {Jews - Hebrews}
Romans 11:2

The word: “FOREKNOWLEDGE”

In reference to GOD
Acts 2:23

In reference to THE CHURCH {Born Again – Saved}
1 Peter

The word: “ORDAIN”

In reference to ISRAEL {Jews - Hebrews}
1 Chronicles 9:22; 1 Chronicles 17:9; Isaiah 26

In reference to THE CHURCH {Born Again – Saved}
1 Corinthians 7:17; Titus 1:5

The word: “FOREORDAINED”

In reference to GOD
1 Peter 1:20

The word: “ORDAINED”

In reference to GOD
Psalms 8:2; Psalms 8:3; Psalms 132:17; Acts 10:42; Acts 17:31; Romans 13:1; 1 Corinthians 2:7

In reference to ISRAEL {Jews - Hebrews}
Numbers 28:6; 2 Kings 23:5; 2 Chronicles 23:18; 2 Chronicles 29:27; Esther 9:27; Psalms 81:5; Isaiah 30:33; Jeremiah 1:5; Daniel 2:24; Habakkuk 1:12; Mark 3:14; John 15:16; Acts 1:22; Romans 7:10; Galatians 3:19; Hebrews 5:1; Hebrews 8:3; Hebrews 9:6

In reference to THE CHURCH {Born Again – Saved}
Acts 13:48; Acts 14:23; Acts 16:4; 1 Corinthians 9:14; Ephesians 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:7

In reference to EVIL
1 Kings 12:32; 1 Kings 12:332; Chronicles 11:15; Jude 1:4

WHAT is the “BASIS” of God’s “FOREKNOWLEDGE”? {See: http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...44&postcount=9 for additional verses.}

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied

The Scriptures clearly state that the “Elect” are according to the “foreknowledge” of God the Father – But the BASIS of “foreknowledge” is not clearly defined in the above verse.
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
In the above verse - “Foreknowledge” is clearly defined as God “knowing”, ahead of time, about events that were going to take place in the future.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

In the above verse those: “whom he did “foreknow” are “predestined to be conformed to the image of his son”. Are all Christians “conformed” to the “image” of Christ today? Has there ever been a time in church history when they were? This verse is not talking about “getting Saved”; it’s talking about how “whom he did “foreknow” (all those who have been saved - born again) will someday be just like Jesus Christ. [1Corinthians 15:49] The BASIS of God’s “foreknowledge” is NOT explained (or defined) in the verse – only the fact that all those “whom he did foreknow are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” To be “conformed to the image of His Son” is the ultimate destiny of every single person (man, woman, or child) that has ever BELIEVED in the Lord Jesus Christ!

Let’s examine the verses cited [Ephesians 1:4-8] in context and “rightly divide” God’s words:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

NOTHING in Ephesians 1:4-8 tells us THE BASIS for God “choosing” us (the elect). It is clear, however, that God has “chosen us in Him - before the foundation of the world” to be “holy and without blame before him in love:” – are ALL Christians “holy and without blame before him in love”? Christians can believe in God “choosing”, and in "calling", "election", "predestination", "justification", and "eternal salvation", "preservation" (NOT "perseverance") without being a Calvinist. We also can believe in "whosoever will" without being an Armenian! It's NOT an "either/or" proposition, no matter how hard some (in either "camp") try to force us into one or the other.


Calvinism Fails to understand “The WORK of God” since Christ has come:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The “WORK” of God (in this age) is to convince people (through His word) to “BELIEVE” the Gospel. The purpose of the Gospel is to bring people to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. IF God “gives” us our “BELIEF”, WHY does He have to WORK at it? If our “BELIEF” is a “gift” from God - where then is there any “WORK” on God’s part? According to the Scriptures, God is now working at getting people to“believe on him whom he hath sent.” [Acts 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.] If our BELIEF is a “gift” from God, there would be NO “WORK” involved at all (on God’s part). Why would God try to “convince” someone of the very same thing (belief) that He is going to “give” them anyway? What would be the point?


Calvinism Fails to accept the clear Scriptural ORDER of God’s SALVATION:

“In whom ye also trusted, AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,” [Ephesians 1:13]

Please notice the “Chronological Order” that leads up to our Salvation: We TRUSTED, AFTER we HEARD the word of TRUTH (The Gospel). We were “sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise”, AFTER WE BELIEVED – NOT “BEFORE”! [Ephesians 1:13]:


Calvinism Fails to discern the DISTINCTION between WORKS and BELIEF:

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; *
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. *
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believedGod, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 4:5 But to him that WORKETH NOT,<> BUT BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

How much clearer can the Scriptures be? According to the Holy Scriptures - IF a man WORKS for something he earns his “reward” [Romans 4:4], BUT IF a man “BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly” - his “BELIEF” is NOT counted as a “WORK”! [Romans 4:5] According to the Holy Scriptures: BELIEVING is NOT counted (or considered) as a WORK!

Calvinism ADDS to the Holy words of God; Calvinism SUBTRACTS from the Holy words of God; Calvinism TWISTS & WRESTS the Holy words of God and takes them out of context in order to “prove” Calvinistic doctrine; and Calvinism PERVERTS the Holy words of God and makes them say (“MEAN”) something other than what they “SAY”! Please check my Thread (and the accompanying Posts): “CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?” for further “proof” of what I have said.

Question: WHO is “ordained”? Answer: THOSE {the elect} whom God “foreknew”. Question: WHO did God “foreknow”? Answer: THOSE whom God did “predestinate”. Question: WHO did God “predestinate”? Answer: THOSE whom He “called”. Question: WHO did God “call”? Answer: THOSE whom He “justified”. Question: WHO did God “JUSTIFY”? Answer: THOSE who received “faith”. Question: WHO received “faith”? Answer: THOSE who “BELIEVED” ON THE Lord Jesus Christ! {Now – Lets’ REVERSE THE ORDER!}

Question: WHO has received “faith”? Answer: THOSE who have “BELIEVED” ON THE Lord Jesus Christ. Question: WHO did God “JUSTIFY”? Answer: THOSE who received “faith”. Question: WHO did God “call”? Answer: THOSE whom He “justified”. Question: WHO did God “predestinate”? Answer: THOSE whom He “called”. Question: WHO did God “foreknow”? Answer: THOSE whom God did “predestinate”. Question: WHO is “ordained”? Answer: THOSE {the elect} whom God “foreknew”.

Or to put it another way: THOSE who have “BELIEVED” ON THE Lord Jesus Christ – have received “faith” (Christ’s faith); and THOSE who have received “faith” – He has “justified”; and THOSE whom He has “justified” – He has “called”; and THOSE whom God has “called” - He did “predestinate”; and THOSE whom He did “predestinate” – He “foreknew”; and THOSE whom He “foreknew” – He did “ordain” to eternal life! [Acts 13:48]

BELIEF (BELIEVING) is the “KEY” to RECEIVING God’s GRACE - It always has been (in every age and under every “Covenant”) the one essential or fundamental condition that God has required, since it is impossible for us to please Him in the flesh (i.e. by our works alone)!

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

In this age, and under “The New Testament”, Salvation is quite simple; and woe be to the man (or men) who seek to “complicate” it! The “simplicity that is in Christ” is simply:

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Diligent

Bro. Forrest,

Thanks for your post (and your clarification regarding the eleven which my post was unclear about).

I wanted to add that the question of being drawn is also answered here:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

This is of course denied by the "I" in "TULIP" which says that God's Grace is irresistible. If God's grace is irresistible then everyone would be saved. This ties right in with your comments about John 12:32.

Brother Brandon, recently I've heard from a "Calvinist" that what Titus 2:11 actually means is that God's grace has indeed appeared to all men but that to the "elect" He gives a special saving grace that is irresistible. Of course, he could offer no scripture to support that teaching. I am really burdened for this young man who will not, by faith, simply believe what the Bible says. Instead, like all Calvinists he twists and adds to the word of God in order to make it fit his theology. I've noticed they (the Calvinists) are really consistent with promoting this false doctrine once they've sunk there teeth into it and it's very difficult to discuss scripture that is in clear opposition to there view.

In a recent post Brother George referred to a young Pastor in the late sixties that he knew who had several commentaries laid out when preparing a sermon instead of simply studying the word of truth. I immediately thought of this young preacher boy who does the exact same thing. He has books and commentaries of known "Calvinists" opened up when preparing a sermon. I counseled him to put the books down and to simply pour his life into the word of God and hear from God.

[peopleoftheway]

Originally Posted by Forrest

Brother Brandon, recently I've heard from a "Calvinist" that what Titus 2:11 actually means is that God's grace has indeed appeared to all men but that to the "elect" He gives a special saving grace that is irresistible. Of course, he could offer no scripture to support that teaching. I am really burdened for this young man who will not, by faith, simply believe what the Bible says. Instead, like all Calvinists he twists and adds to the word of God in order to make it fit his theology. I've noticed they (the Calvinists) are really consistent with promoting this false doctrine once they've sunk there teeth into it and it's very difficult to discuss scripture that is in clear opposition to there view.

In a recent post Brother George referred to a young Pastor in the late sixties that he knew who had several commentaries laid out when preparing a sermon instead of simply studying the word of truth. I immediately thought of this young preacher boy who does the exact same thing. He has books and commentaries of known "Calvinists" opened up when preparing a sermon. I counseled him to put the books down and to simply pour his life into the word of God and hear from God.

Amen Brother!
There is a powerful message to be delivered when a man of God submits to the word of God and lets the Spirit speak and not the "commentator".

By the way it is great to see you posting more lately, I will send you an email soon, I have been lacking there Brother recently and I pray the Lord is working wonders through your life.

God Bless

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

Amen Brother!
There is a powerful message to be delivered when a man of God submits to the word of God and lets the Spirit speak and not the "commentator".

By the way it is great to see you posting more lately, I will send you an email soon, I have been lacking there Brother recently and I pray the Lord is working wonders through your life.

God Bless

Greetings Brother. When I was in my twenties as a young preacher, I too depended a great deal on "commentaries" to help me understand. But there is nothing like reading the word of God and simply trusting the Spirit through the word to open your eyes of spiritual understanding. I've always said if you wish to hear God's still, small voice you must be still and small!

By the way, it's good to see you back more frequently too! Love you, brother.

[peopleoftheway]

Brother! Love you too.

there is NO GREATER teacher than He that suffered on the Cross on Calvarys Hill.

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

What a promise that is Brother, the Lord Jesus Christ said "I will not leave you comfortless" "I will come to you", (If we will only but ask) he longs for us to come to him, not the commentators, he desires that we seek him and his word, for no other may lead us into the greatest truth's the deepest truth's than God Himself.

1 Corinthians 2:9-10 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

I have decided that in regards to those under the error of John Calvins / Augustines teachings (And I say that by Gods spirit, with no high-mindedness, simply testifying the truth by Gods Spirit)
That we, as mere wretched men can only do so much, say so much, write so much and it will fall short of what a man is willing to accept, yet the Lord in Heaven above shall do his work if we only pray for those who are caught up in their own error and the error of men before them, I have seen plenty of Gods Holy scriptures presented by well versed and blessed Brothers such as George and your Good self, Brandon, Luke, Bro Bones etc etc (I wont do a roll call here )
But the real work that needs done on the heart can only be done by Christ Himself, by his Spirit.

1 Timothy 2:1-5 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

ALL MEN!

Amen!