[pneuby]

Diligent 06-03-2009 01:45 PM
Even cultural issues are not "deal breakers." As I implied before, I think a Christian American man will have an easier time finding a wife willing to submit herself to him in a different culture. American culture teaches the lie that men and woman are no different in their roles. Despite other problems in other cultures, there are still cultures left where the difference between a man and a woman is understood and respected. This, to me, would be a far bigger issue than how dark her skin is.

Amen. As with two other brothers I see here, I also married a Filipina. Her Dad's a free-grace pastor of a small AoG church in her home village. God blessed me LARGE with this lady.

[Amanda S.]

Thanks Greenbear! It certainly helped me see your point of view. I will no longer refer to anything you've said in this thread.

Let us bear in mind that neither the Love and Race thread nor the Biblical Marriage "Joined" or "Yoked" thread were on the topic of whether anybody believed that believers should marry unbelievers.

Alrighty, thanks for steering me back to the bigger picture

Correct me if I am wrong...so the Love and Race thread is whether or not interracial marriage is permitted in the church age and the Yoked/Joined is what it is. Honestly I don't think I ever commented over there until you addressed me from this thread on the Yoked/Joined with this comment

What? This thread has been about whether marriage is being "yoked" or being "joined".

I never made one comment over there until after post #93. How was I supposed to know what that thread was about? And I've quickly found out that quite frankly I want nothing to do with that brew ha ha! Yikes!

Love and Race Thread Post 108, July 20

Amanda's Quote:
Interestingly I have heard this quoted a time or 2 in defense of marrying an unbeliever in attempts to win them to the Lord.

Greenbear's response:
I believe you are mistaken if you're insinuating that's how this verse was used in this thread by either George or myself.

Just for the record to which I replied I was NOT insinuating that

Amanda's Quote:
Oh not at all! In my lifetime, not on this forum. Sorry for not being clearer

We are not going to agree completely on the "joined not yoked" aspect so therefore are not going to come to a complete agreement here.

Greenbear said: I wouldn't cave in and support the "popular" verse that "everybody" who's anybody uses to support the position that believers should not marry unbelievers.

I guess you can call me "everybody that's anybody"

If it's not God's will, if it's not good, if it is a bad decision etc...and you do it any way it is sin.

As I previously stated:

Quote:
We had better be mighty careful (just because we may have “good” marriages), that we don’t go around judging Christians that may have ignorantly or willfully married a lost person.
Ignorantly married a lost person...sure, I'll give you that.

Willfully? James 4:17 comes to mind.

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

While it's not up to us to shake a finger, scowl and judge, it will be judged as sin by God. I don't believe as a state of sin, but a single act of sin.

I think one other thing we disagree on is actually calling willfully marrying an unbeliever, ignoring the negatives and all the red flags and the Father's will - SIN.

[greenbear]

Amanda's[QUOTE]

If it's not God's will, if it's not good, if it is a bad decision etc...and you do it any way it is sin.

As I previously stated:

Amanda's

This is not my quote. I painstaking listed all of my quotes about the topic on my preceding post. Since you are addressing me and attributing your misunderstanding of the following quote to me, I'll try to make it clear.
Renee wrote this sentence:

We had better be mighty careful (just because we may have “good” marriages), that we don’t go around judging Christians that may have ignorantly or willfully married a lost person.

Amanda wrote this sentence in response to Renee's quote above:

Ignorantly married a lost person...sure, I'll give you that.

Willfully? James 4:17 comes to mind.

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Although I didn't write the above words, I agree with Renee's thoughts. Although I haven't compiled all of Renee's quotes on the topic, I don't think she is saying it's OK to marry an unbeliever. Taking the plain meaning of her words, she is saying that we need to take great care that we don't judge the marriages of those who are already married! Once a believer marries an unbeliever, it done! The couple is joined by God! They are one flesh. Matthew 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

I believe Renee's point is that we should be careful in judging this couple's marriage as being in some way inferior to our own. An attitude of judgement toward the couple and the validity of their marriage by their (or his or her's) church fellowship, for instance, could cause pain and difficulty in the marriage. Marriage, especially between a believer and unbeliever, is often difficult enough as it is. God forbid that we should play a part in dividing them asunder. Now, that would be a grave sin.

I think one other thing we disagree on is actually calling willfully marrying an unbeliever, ignoring the negatives and all the red flags and the Father's will - SIN

Unbelief is sin. That can generally cover many things that we do in our lives but only God can judge a person's heart, whether they are doing something because they have unbelief in their heart or not.

I would never counsel a believer to marry an unbeliever ... unless there were extenuating circumstances. Perhaps if they are already sleeping together, and they won't or can't stop, which is something that is specifically NAMED AS SIN...fornication, or adultery. Or if the woman was pregnant by the man.

Granted that Paul tells widows to remarry only in the Lord, but can you tell me where in the Bible goes God singles out the act of a believer marrying an unbeliever and specifically condemns it. Does He ever NAME IT AS SIN? If He does, then I will flat out name it as a sin.

I try (unsuccessfully many times) not to condemn other people for things they do that I feel is sinful. I'm a hypocrite when I do that, and maybe even a false accuser. Jesus pronounced many Woes! to hypocrites. To regular sinners He says, Go and sin no more. He really hates hypocrisy. I don't think He cares much for false accusers, either. I don't want to be either of those things, even though I know I am at times.

[Amanda S.]

Oh my word Sis. Jessica!? Of course that's not your quote?

Did I say it was?? No, rather I was quoting - you say Renee? - OK...I did not care who said it...I was interested in showing MY reply to the author's warning...

I know you agree with Renee. I read that last night too...

I am not confused in the least on what's being discussed in my posts.

Jessica said:
I would never counsel a believer to marry an unbeliever ... unless there were extenuating circumstances. Perhaps if they are already sleeping together, and they won't or can't stop, which is something that is specifically NAMED AS SIN...fornication, or adultery. Or if the woman was pregnant by the man.

OK...I'll give you that...But I would still say willfully doing that which is wrong (bad, not God's will etc.) is sin...We all know lying is a sin but I would lie in a heartbeat to protect my children from an intruder were he to ask where in the house they were hiding. God forgive me. I am not talking about extenuating circumstances anyway...I was speaking generally...if after counseling, warnings, ignoring God's will the person still willfully chose to marry anyway I think it's plain out wrong...Wronger than coveting or lying? No. But still wrong.

Jessica said:
I try (unsuccessfully many times) not to condemn other people for things they do that I feel is sinful. I'm a hypocrite when I do that, and maybe even a false accuser. Jesus pronounced many Woes! to hypocrites. To regular sinners He says, Go and sin no more. He really hates hypocrisy. I don't think He cares much for false accusers, either. I don't want to be either of those things, even though I know I am at times.

Agreed. I condemn no one. Do I think it is still a sin? Yes. My children (obviously myself too) willfully sin often...do I condemn them? No. Am I full of condemnation towards them? No.

Again I quote myself:

While it's not up to us to shake a finger, scowl and judge, it will be judged as sin by God. I don't believe as a state of sin, but a single act of sin.

[greenbear]

Sister, I should have put my name in my signature long before now. It's confusing to keep people straight when coming on a new board. It's kind of funny, you can't imagine how many times in my life I have been called Jessica.

A note of explanation: I always assume if someone addresses an undesignated quote in their response to me that they may think I wrote those words. Also, others who read it, even months later, lol, can get confused and attribute the quote to me.

I believe you brought the topic back up again and you asked me what scriptures I would use to say that a believer marrying an unbeliever should not be done if it is not sin.

These are our individual opinions.

It' sin.
It's not God's perfect will and therefore a bad idea.

I ask you where in the Bible God names it as sin.
You ask me where in the Bible I get my ideas about it being a bad idea.

I've stated everything I know about why it's a bad idea and even summarized them on my post before last.

You still haven't told me where God says He will judge it as sin.

Still, you've just given your opinion.

Since God (to my knowledge) hasn't labeled it as such, neither should I. There are things that people, not just christians, do in their lives that are not specified as sin, that really mess them up.

Amanda's
My

Amanda's

Just about any mother would lie, and rightly so, to save her child from a dangerous person. That's not a sin. During the German occupation of europe people hid Jews in their basements and attics in order to save their lives. They lied out of compassion, not from an evil heart. They were trying to save lives from the hands of murderers. Rahab lied to the king of Jerico about the Israelite spys. She lied out of faith, not from a deceitful heart. Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. God is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. There are some things that people do that only He can tell if it is sin or not. So if He doesn't tell me something is sin, who am I to say it is?

[Amanda S.]

Sis. Jessica,

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

You said - It's not God's perfect will and therefore a bad idea

If it is is a bad idea then the opposite of that would be a good idea.

And I believe that the Bible teaches that to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The Bible clearly states that doing something you know is not good as a sin. It is as you said earlier "something that is specifically NAMED AS SIN"

You said:
You still haven't told me where God says He will judge it as sin.

Yes I did. I believe I repeated myself at least twice, but for the record there it is.

You said: Still, you've just given your opinion.

Ok...and you've given yours......................

Since God (to my knowledge) hasn't labeled it as such, neither should I.

Again, I think he has, obviously you do not.

For the record again:

I believe that if you do something that is bad or a bad idea or however you want to say it and you KNOW that it is bad or a bad idea it is SIN and I use James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. to support that thought process.

You said: There are some things that people do that only He can tell if it is sin or not.

oooooookkkkkk...Agreed on that point! And then there are some things that people do that we CAN tell if it is sin or not.......?

We will honestly have to agree to disagree.

[Brother Tim]

I think that there is a gap between that which is sin and that which is not a sin. First, there are behaviors that are not inherently sin, but can become sin in an individual's life. See Romans 14, particularly:

Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Second, the Scripture in Hebrews 12:1 separates behavior called "weights" from "sin". Note the conjunction "and".

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

[Amanda S.]

Brother Tim,

I think that there is a gap between that which is sin and that which is not a sin.

Ok...I agree. Ignorance fills that gap. So we are agreed that if one marries an unbeliever ignorantly then they have not sinned...But not willfully or even doubting if you want to apply that verse to this.

The context of Romans 14:22 is food and going against your conscience.

I fully admitted earlier that if you ignorantly married an unbeliver that is different than willfully marrying one.

If you are wanting to apply this verse to the topic though, if you are doubting whether or not it is right to marry and you do it doubting then that is also sin.

As to Hebrews 12:1 -

Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Of course as you said it is not a sin to be rich, but it certainly can be a weight hindering you in your walk with God.

I don't see where there is a gray area between righteousness and unrighteousness except in ignorance.