Originally Posted by jerry

Not in my Bible. Nice try though...

You hate the truth of God..

No, I hate your manmade system of theology. Pretty arrogant of you to think you have ALL truth and everyone else is out to lunch!

[chette777]

the idea of Calvinism is that if you don't agree with them youare Arminian. they however do preach another Gospel the preach the that salvation is by Irresitable Grace and not by faith in Christ Jesus.

They teach that Free-will is a state of sin. and most of their arguments are circle logic. By their own admittance most don't agree with their own doctrine of Limited Attonement.

They take most of their proofs from Scriptures that are out of context. and the root of their supposed teaching comes from Augustine who was a Roman Catholic as well as a Alexadrian sect that enjoyed correcting the scriptures.

I don't bother to much trying to debate them any more because most of the time they only want to soundoff their doctrine they have learned froma man rather than grow int he knowledge of Gods word.

most of their logic in giving forth their view often reminds me of the JW's

Originally Posted by Paladin54

lol Sorry, I had to post and get off quickly.

Can a loving God predestinate people regarding their salvation? While it is impossible for God to allow any unsaved man condemned by the Law, would he refuse a man the chance to get salvation? I struggle with this thought. I do not accept predestination, but I want to hear your thoughts on the (much more specific) of: Can a loving God force someone to never gain salvation?

If I may state my views concerning your question "Can a loving God predestinate people regarding their salvation?".

I will answer in the affirmative, Yes!

Let me give you this one verse:
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

In order to understand that verse, we have to look at the state and spiritual condition of mankind.

State:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Condition:
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Therefore, if "all" are under sin, then God has to save "all". For we were all subjected to vanity, not willingly.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


Consistent with the bible as a whole, God created mankind subject to vanity, but at the same time provided a means by which the subjected would find hope.

God took care of the salvation problem, but our behavioral problem is ours to manage by blessings and or consequences.

Blessing if we do right, and consequences for sins committed.


Now, how many people can we save from the suffering of spiritual blindness, to that of helping to open the eyes to see Gods spiritual blessings, riches and life?

With the burden of trying to save the world from eternal damnation be lifted up from our shoulders, can we now concentrate on loving our neighbor, regardless of their beliefs?

Calvinism, Armainianism , they were instrumental in furthering the evolution of spiritual growth, meaning that Christianity was once a child, but since, hath grown and growing still to adult hood.

A child has to go through trials and tribulations, having to experience it all in order to learn spiritual truth.

The body of Christ has come along ways, but not yet to full maturity in general, but for individual growth, well, that is up to each individual.

We are responsible to our selves to learn at our own pace, always seeking truth so that we may conform to that of the stature of Christ.

My views and opinions only, not dogmatic theology, but information that may help some who like myself were stuck on key verses.

Mine was this one:
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
God revealed to me the answer I sought for, and to my surprise and with gladness, it was not what the normal understanding of it is, but quite different that has to do with my post.

Peace>>>AJ

What?? Do you believe in Universalism? God provided salvation for all mankind - but each individual must choose to receive Jesus or reject Him. All of mankind is condemned, and all of mankind CAN/MAY be saved - but not all are, due to their personal choice to receive or reject the Gospel of Christ.

[JerryW]

Originally Posted by jerry

What?? Do you believe in Universalism? God provided salvation for all mankind - but each individual must choose to receive Jesus or reject Him. All of mankind is condemned, and all of mankind CAN/MAY be saved - but not all are, due to their personal choice to receive or reject the Gospel of Christ.

Jerry,
You say "and all of mankind CAN/MAY be saved , but not all are, due to their personal choice to receive or reject the Gospel of Christ". But yet a third of the world has not even heard the Gospel Of Christ. Paul says on Rom 1:16 the gospel is the power of God UNTO salvation. Again in Rom 10:14 he says "how can they believe in the one they have not heard." You refer to "their personal choice either to receive or reject." But, in John I:13 to those that believe have become children of God - children born not of natural descent, nor of HUMAN DECISION or a husbands will but born of God. Why do many people that hear the gospel not believe? God answers that question in John 10:26 when he says "but you do not believe because you are not of my sheep". These are some hard truths that might not be easy to swallow but they are right from God's own word. They are up to us to either believe or reject.

Originally Posted by jerry

What?? Do you believe in Universalism? God provided salvation for all mankind - but each individual must choose to receive Jesus or reject Him. All of mankind is condemned, and all of mankind CAN/MAY be saved - but not all are, due to their personal choice to receive or reject the Gospel of Christ.

Yes, I believe God saves all. And I hope you are not offended by my saying so.

The question was about predestination?

And so I gave my views on it, whether its accepted or not, in my view has no bearing on eternal salvation for Christ paid the price for that which was lost, and all mankind was lost.

The fact that not all know the good news, is where we come in.

To save some from the gates of hell, which is the suffering and pain of this existence without God in the heart.

If we believe in the good news and regard it in our hearts, than we are born again, alive in the spirit forever more, and never to die again.

We are equipped to minister to those who don't know so that we may save some.

Peace>>>AJ

Originally Posted by JerryW

But yet a third of the world has not even heard the Gospel Of Christ.

Romans 1-3 teaches that there is enough evidence in creation and in our conscience to prove there is a God - and when man follows the light he has and searches for God, God has obligated Himself to reveal the truth to them. That is why there are stories of African tribes who turned from their idols and then God sends a missionary thousands of miles into uncharted territory to bring them the Gospel. ALL THE WORLD knew the truth at one point in time, but as Romans 1 indicates, their foolish hearts were darkened when they turned to idolatry. At the same time, Romans 10 and Psalm 19 indicates that the truth has gone into all the world. Man is without excuse - and God is faithful to reveal Himself to those who sincerely seek Him.

Why do many people that hear the gospel not believe? God answers that question in John 10:26 when he says "but you do not believe because you are not of my sheep". These are some hard truths that might not be easy to swallow but they are right from God's own word. They are up to us to either believe or reject.

Jesus is speaking to His disciples here - those who already were saved, and indicating the sign of their salvation is obedience. He is not speaking to the lost and calling them His sheep. The Bible nowhere teaches that God saves someone THEN they can respond to the Gospel. The opposite is true: God convicts (NOT REGENERATES) and enlightens the lost, they respond to the Gospel THEN are saved.

Look, the Bible does not teach universalism in any sense. That is foolish thinking and a denial of many clear Bible passages where God gives man a choice. A choice implies the possibility of refusal and rejection of the truth and of the Messiah.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[JerryW]

[QUOTE=jerry;3377]Romans 1-3 teaches that there is enough evidence in creation and in our conscience to prove there is a God - and when man follows the light he has and searches for God, God has obligated Himself to reveal the truth to them. That is why there are stories of African tribes who turned from their idols and then God sends a missionary thousands of miles into uncharted territory to bring them the Gospel. ALL THE WORLD knew the truth at one point in time, but as Romans 1 indicates, their foolish hearts were darkened when they turned to idolatry. At the same time, Romans 10 and Psalm 19 indicates that the truth has gone into all the world. Man is without excuse - and God is faithful to reveal Himself to those who sincerely seek Him.
Jerry, I agree that creation is enough to prove the existence of God, but just "believing in God" is not enough to bring one into a saving relationship with Christ. Even the devil "believes in God". If you can be saved by looking at creation why are we wasting all our time to send out missionaries? Rom 10:9 says that you must confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, and you will be saved. How could somebody that has not even heard the name Jesus Christ confess with his mouth that"Jesus is Lord"? Also you said that ALL THE WORLD at one time knew the truth, but according to Eph 2:11-12 prior to Christ the Gentiles were WITHOUT HOPE AND WITHOUT GOD IN THIS WORLD. Again,we have a passage that sounds hard but nevertheless it is from God's own word!