[greenbear]

Originally Posted by CKG

No problem. I don't want to come across as argumentative. Like most on this forum I'm a believer who wants to know the truth of God's word. There are areas that God has opened my eyes to (such as the Bible version issue), but when I read what others have posted on the various threads I realize what a long way I have to go. I can get in the flesh like anyone else so I have to remind myself when I post that my point is not to win the argument or debate, but to learn what the Bible says and teaches.

CKG,
You don't come across as argumentative to me. I'm not positive I'm right about this, but I'm pretty sure. Yet, I learned just a few days ago on this thread that I was still carrying around the SDA error that Christ was born with a sin nature.

I just got busy lately and I need time to read and consider your arguments.

Participating on this board has shown me how much others know that I don't. It's kind of humbling to find out that I don't know that much, after all. I'm like you, I want to know the truth. Even if it means I have to publicly admit that I was wrong and that's no fun at all.

Jennifer

[greenbear]

This in in response for CKG's post #113 to me.

Craig,
I'm just a simple person who believes that the King James Bible is God's pure, perfect Word. I believe from reading a number of your previous posts that you are a serious student of God's truth, as I am. I hope you'll consider what I've written below.

I have strong aversion to the traditions and teachings of various sects and denominations that I believe add to or take away from God's Word. Specifically, I reject Calvinism's TULIP doctrine because quite simply I see it as a slanderous lie about the character of God. I don't think the doctrine of the sin-nature comes from Calvinism, as you maintain. I believe it came down to us through millennia of Christian/Jewish thought and I believe the Bible teaches it.

Let me ask you a question. Were God's words spoken in vain when He commanded Adam "...Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."? Genesis 2:16-17

Adam didn't physically die that day, rather he sewed an apron of fig leaves to hide his nakedness. According to God's spoken words to Adam, he was different after eating of the fruit. God said Adam would die in the day that he ate of the fruit. If he didn't die physically that same day, in what way did he die? Men are tripartite beings. Did his soul die? I don't think so. Just as believers have recognized since antiquity, Adam and Eve died spiritually that day. The Bible does say so. God said so. It's none of our concern why God doesn't record the exact words we think we want to read to convince us. He gave us enough information to come to the correct conclusion. I don't put any stock in arguments based upon human reason. This question is spiritually discerned. Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Is it really that strange that the Lord wouldn't spell everything out in one verse especially considering that the topic is about being spiritually alive vs. spiritually dead? Consider these verses:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Before Adam's fall he had access to the tree of life.
After the fall, he was denied access; He was driven out of the Garden; God said Lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever. Why did God do that if nothing changed within Adam? Was it just as punishment for disobeying God or was something else going on?

Before the fall, God walked with Adam in the cool of the day. Adam was created in a state of innocence. He had no propensity to sin
When Adam disobeyed God's only commandment to him, he lost his innocence and his nature was corrupted. This corrupted nature was passed from Adam to all of his descendants. Before his fall, Adam WALKED and TALKED with God FACE TO FACE in the Garden. Adam’s descendants could not look upon Him without perishing. They are so sinful that the Lord might break forth upon them.
Exodus 19:21-22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish. And let the priests also, which come near to the LORD, sanctify themselves, lest the LORD break forth upon them.

This idea of spiritual death is woven throughout scripture.

Proverbs 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Romans 6:12-13 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 5:14-19 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

I submit that the following verses that describe the nature of Adam’s descendants do not apply to Adam before he fell. I don't believe scripture teaches that we are born in the same state of innocence that Adam was created with.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Psalms 14:1-3 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

God made Adam in His image, after His likeness.
Gen 1:26a And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Adam begat a son after his image.
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
God sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (which sinful flesh was begat in Adam's likeness after his fall).
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: