[George]

There is a DIFFERENCE between "WORKS" and "FRUIT":

Galatians 5:19 Now the WORKS of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:22 But the FRUIT of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

WORKS have to do with the "FLESH"! FRUIT has to do with the "SPIRIT"!

The Scriptures say: Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Lost people are NOT impressed with our WORKS! They have enough sense to look for FRUIT in our lives (even if modern day Christians don't). And you can be sure that lost people can spot a Christian without FRUIT (a "Hypocrite") - even if modern day Christians can't!

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

I find it sad, really. A man who is so tied up on one single issue that he cannot see past and reacts with such bile when entreated is unbiblical and very disturbing. I too have a lot of respect for George, but as a result of this thread I'm reconsidering some things.

What about the reverse?

"A man" who is so enamored of the good works of another man that he refuses to consider the ramifications of his heretical teachings? That's what we already have in spades in the Christian world.

When a man tells me that he is the head of his church and the he is the mediator between his congregation and Jesus, my first assumption is that he's trying to get elected Pope. And I know all I need to know about his teachings at that point. Anything good that comes out of such a ministry falls under Romans 8:28.

[George]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

I find it sad, really. A man who is so tied up on one single issue that he cannot see past and reacts with such bile when entreated is unbiblical and very disturbing. I too have a lot of respect for George, but as a result of this thread I'm reconsidering some things.

George, if you think Bro. Estep is a heretic, then so be it. Regardless of what you'll say to the contrary, I provided Scripture to show that regardless of the situation, the response from you was unwarranted. Ignore me if you like; I really couldn't care less. I don't need validation from you, Atlas, or anyone else. I appreciate a brother publicly standing with me on an issue, but "let God be true, but every man a liar." When someone is overemphasized for any reason, like has been done on this topic with Bro. Estep (again, a man I know personally and I have seen the fruits of his work first-hand), the Lord Jesus Christ and His word are removed from the spotlight, and replaced with a man that had a doctrine wrong. Regardless of what's on the pedestal for whatever reason, it's still wrong. God wants the glory, and I must say He got very little glory after you began posting about Bro. Estep.

MC1171611,

Have you "conveniently" FORGOTTEN, that I did not Post anything about Greg Estep in about 400 Posts - UNTIL (AND NOT UNTIL) Atlas recommended him? Hmmm? And if you and Atlas ever stop extolling his supposed virtues and what a "good" and "godly" man he is, you can be assured I will stop.

Until then, keep on supporting the man; because you know him personally (respect of persons) or because of his "good works" (faulty judgment) , and I will continue to expose him for what he truly is: A FALSE TEACHER and a HERETIC!

Both you and Atlas have refused to deal with 1/10 of the charges that I have brought forth (from his own lips), and instead have engaged in subterfuge and mis-direction.

[MC1171611]

You believe him to be a heretic. I simply believe him to be a man who is wrong on a doctrine, albeit a serious one. That does not make him a heretic: a heretic is one who rejects the word of God intentionally or twists it to benefit himself. Greg Estep has not done this: he sincerely believes what he teaches. He is wrong, and you're largely correct in your statement of his unbiblical doctrine, but it's the spirit of your communication that is in error.

He may be wrong, but you approach it even more wrongly. His name was mentioned ONCE, and you've completely derailed a topic to make your point over and over again, which is well understood, just rejected by most because of your overreaction. He sincerely teaches a wrong doctrine, and while it must be exposed as wrong, the rest of his teachings aren't "heretical" as a result, as you seem to think.

Again, an attitude check (against the Scriptures) is to be recommended.

Well ...

I tried.....

I was just trying to make peace, brother. It's not my place to rebuke you guys. Just speak the truth in love, okay?

Now I'm gonna go hide, and let you guys do your thing.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

You believe him to be a heretic. I simply believe him to be a man who is wrong on a doctrine, albeit a serious one. That does not make him a heretic: a heretic is one who rejects the word of God intentionally or twists it to benefit himself.

I'll take what you say at face value and go from that:

How does it not benefit a man to teach that his position is essentially "in Christ's stead" in the church? He teaches that he is the head of his church. This can't be denied. What I don't get is why this doesn't qualify as a twist to "benefit himself."

Stepping back, your definition of heretic is untenable. It essentially means that nobody who is sincere in what they believe should be "rejected." That's just not reasonable, brother -- plenty of people pushing their peculiar, private, false doctrines are perfectly sincere in what they are pushing. It doesn't mean they aren't heretics.

Finally, you admit this is a "serious one" to be wrong on. Set aside what you know about Estep for a second and look at this one thing, which he calls "the key to happiness." He teaches that he is the one his followers must submit to. He teaches that he is the head of his church.

You and I know who the head is.

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Defending a man who says out of his own mouth that he, not Jesus, is the head of the church, is defending a man who is "scripturalizing" Satan's sin!

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

How can a Bible believer not reject a man who puts himself in Christ's place in the church? How can a Bible believer not reject someone who wants Christ's glory in the church? If this guy had a bowl of Kool Aid and told you to drink it, wouldn't you call him a cultist!?

Yes, I'm sure the man is saved, but he's got no business teaching the Bible if he thinks he is the head of his church. None whatsoever. I don't care how good his works look. I don't care how nice he is in person. "In all things he [Jesus Christ] might have the preeminence." Nobody who wants to take some of my Saviour's preeminence for himself is going to get a free pass from me.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Vendetta Ride

I was just trying to make peace, brother.

Brother, I'm all for peace. But this isn't about MC, Atlas, George, me, you, or Greg Estep. This is about my saviour, who is the head of his body and church. This is about my God, who saved me from my sin. This is about Jesus Christ, the only mediator between God and man. And this is about him, and only him, getting all the preeminence. Nobody gets to take some of that from my Lord, give it to himself, and get a free pass from me on it.

[ltpage]

I think Ruckman is a crack pot and wouldn't doubt it if he did believe that abortion is not a sin. That's just my humble opinion.

[Luke]

He didn't say it wasn't a sin, and nobody appreciates you calling a man a crackpot and then attributing a lie to him, based on your previous supposition that he is a "crackpot" so he could teach anything....