[George]

Originally Posted by PaulB

"Hi Pam! I don’t think that we are going to agree on anything in Scripture in the light of what you have just presented to me, as your rule of hermeneutics is like a Semitic form of preterism. When you start applying a rule of interpretation like that then that’s when you are forced into a position where you have to start pitching Paul’s teachings against those of His own Lord and Saviour. I’m sorry but that is just plain old heresy and not a right division of the word!"

PaulB

Aloha PaulB,

I am in agreement that custer (Pam) has misspoken when she says:

custer said:

"As far as Jesus and Paul...Paul is NOT speaking "in accordance with" Jesus! Paul directly contradicts what Jesus said - comparing I Corinthians 7:10-11 and 27-28 with Matthew 19:9."

"Paul also contradicts Jesus concerning salvation: When asked how to get eternal life, Jesus told the man in Matthew 19:16-17 that he should "keep the commandments;" Paul says in Galatians 3:21, "...if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." And again, in Titus 3:5, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,..." And Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Jesus' statement ("keep the commandments") has WORKS necessary for salvation AS OPPOSED TO PAUL who makes it clear that our salvation does NOT involve works!"

Paul "directly CONTRADICTS what Jesus said"? "Paul also contradicts Jesus concerning salvation:" I trow not!

I refuse to get drawn into the "divorce debate"; but in regards to what the Lord said about salvation, and what the Apostle Paul said later: Had Paul been present (remember - "Historical context") at the time the Lord said what He said, and if Paul said (at that time) what Paul said - Paul would have "directly contradicted" what The Lord said, BUT something happened between THE TIME that the Lord Jesus Christ said what He said and THE TIME that Paul said what he said - it's called the "ATONEMENT" (the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ) the PAYMENT FOR OUR SINS was NOT YET MADE when the Lord spoke His words; the PAYMENT WAS MADE when Paul spoke his words. {The PAYMENT WAS MADE when the Lord Jesus Christ uttered the words: "It is FINISHED" [John 19:30]}

The Apostle Paul received the revelation of the "mysteries of God" directly from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Is it possible that the Lord would teach Paul to "CONTRADICT" what He said? I trow not! Custer (Pam) simply used a "poor choice" of words in trying to explain her position. How is it possible that Lord Jesus Christ would "contradict" Himself - IF He was the One who instructed the Apostle Paul?

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

If we follow the Scriptural instructions ("rightly dividing the word of truth") we will recognize the "Historical Context" i.e. the "TIME" when the words were spoken; and we will discern the "Doctrinal Application" i.e. "WHO" is being spoken to; and it will become apparent that there is NO CONTRADICTION - there is a DIVISION (of "time" & "congregation") between what the Lord Jesus Christ said and what the Apostle Paul said. The Lord Jesus Christ was speaking to the "lost sheep of the House of Israel" (ONLY) BEFORE THE ATONEMENT; the Apostle Paul was addressing the church of God at at Corinth AFTER THE ATONEMENT, and AFTER the Jews had rejected the Jewish Apostles message to the nation of Israel to repent. {The Scriptures are talking about two DIFFERENT "TIMES" and two DIFFERENT "AUDIENCES" (i.e. "congregations"). There is NO "CONTRADICTION", but there is an obvious "DIVISION".}

All Scripture has Three Applications:

1. HISTORICAL

2. DOCTRINAL

3. SPIRITUAL

In order to rightly divide the word of God we must always keep those three things in mind when we study.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[greenbear]

Brother George,

Do you by chance have a study you've already written about the three applications of scripture? If you do, I would be interested in reading it.

Jennifer

[Amanda S.]

Sister Jassy,

Jassy said: So, I guess it amazes me that people would be so fast to pass judgment and shove aside those who don't share their particular "brand" of Christianity or their own WORLD UNDERSTANDING. One day there will be, I believe, an ecumenical religion thrust upon the world. It will be especially tragic when weak Christians fall for it and embrace it. It will be Satan's counterfeit religion and it will become enforced. Those without wisdom will be LOST for eternity.

Sister, I was struck by the use of these words. We all pass judgment every day on many things...it's in our nature. We can't help it. When a decision is made on any topic a judgment is being made. Now if you are suggesting by passing judgment we shove aside, I honestly don't think ANYone on here at least has suggested ANYone be shoved aside?

And if we are not to "shun or shove aside or pass judgment" on those without the faith shouldn't we even more so treat our brethren the same way?

Because one judges that an act is a sin based on the Bible, and we teach it as such how is that shoving aside a brother? Are men not to preach sin for fear of passing judgment? For fear of ostracizing a brother? If my pastor or husband preaches on being unfruitful and I am convicted I am not shunned. My pastor can teach right and wrong and I still have the free will to ignore it. It still doesn't change right and wrong.

I have seen these comments across the forum and don't understand how making a judgment based on Scripture equals shunning?

Please, I welcome you to explain it to me.

[custer]

PaulB,
Since my posts are being delayed, some of them are tending to get lost in the conversation...I am mentioning this because I want to make sure that you saw that I have a response/question for you in my post #100.

And since some believe I have "misspoken," my husband says I need to clarify my post #95...

The impetus for my post about contradictions was a couple of statements made by PaulB:
"the words of Jesus are the final rule on all things" AND
"every word of our Lord Jesus Christ is the final revelation of God to us."

These phrases were a 'red flag' to me indicating that PaulB and I were not 'on the same page' when it comes to rightly dividing! Sometimes it is necessary to know where someone is coming from dispensationally if one is going to discuss a Bible issue with them...anybody's response to my proposed contradictions would let me know something about their thoughts on rightly dividing!

Surely we are all going to agree that ultimately the author of ALL the passages I cited is GOD himself. (II Tim. 3:16) And the God who gave us this completed revelation in the Authorized Version is the God who gave US - present-day church-age Christians right now - the illustrious privilege of being able to read these passages together, back-to-back, within a minute of each other if we so desire. The point is (and what I was trying to get across to PaulB) that WITHOUT APPLYING DISPENSATIONAL PRINCIPLES (I.E. 'RIGHTLY DIVIDING,') the plain words of Matthew 19:16-17 do not agree with Gal. 3:21, Titus 3:5, or Eph. 2:8-9. The 'plan of salvation,' the way to get saved, what to do to obtain eternal life - IS NOT THE SAME in these passages! Things that are DIFFERENT are not the SAME...they contradict!
(Just like James 2:24 contradicts Romans 3:28 UNLESS YOU RIGHTLY DIVIDE!) Since these 'plans of salvation' are DIFFERENT, we must choose by rightly dividing...if one (TODAY) chooses to try to obtain eternal life by keeping the commandments, as Jesus said in Matthew 19, HE WILL DIE AND GO TO HELL! So, I was trying to establish the importance of rightly dividing!
(Same thing on the divorce/remarriage issue; if the verses don't say the same thing, we are going to have to choose which one is FOR US!)

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

[greenbear]

Jassy's

It has pained me that a church will send an evangelistic missionary over to Africa or Asia or wherever and think that their "good deed" is done and that they can open the minds of the people to the truth. Oftentimes what happens first is offensive to the people there, for the reason that Westernized Christians lack understanding and wisdom. This is why I have always felt that NATIVE evangelists, who understand the language, culture and people, are the very BEST evangelists. Simply provide them with the Bibles and literature they need! When we try to enforce our own thinking and culture upon others (think politics also!), it results in many hurt feelings, smashed toes, and misunderstandings.

Jassy's

I have seen "other worlds" and other cultures, both Christian and not, and I can definitely say, from my own knowledge, that not all have the Westernized view of Christianity. It has plagued me for a long while, that the Western Christians are so focused on their own culture, that they fail to see that the Lord did not come for Americans ONLY. He came - and DIED FOR - the sins of ALL the world.

(I added the bolding and color and font size.)



Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a man with more than one wife to enter into the kingdom of God.

Brandon, please don't ban me for Bible correcting...

Jesus didn't say that! Jesus said:

Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

[greenbear]

Jassy's thoughts brought those scriptures to mind in my post above.

[CKG]

Originally Posted by custer

PaulB,
Since my posts are being delayed, some of them are tending to get lost in the conversation...I am mentioning this because I want to make sure that you saw that I have a response/question for you in my post #100.

And since some believe I have "misspoken," my husband says I need to clarify my post #95...

The impetus for my post about contradictions was a couple of statements made by PaulB:
"the words of Jesus are the final rule on all things" AND
"every word of our Lord Jesus Christ is the final revelation of God to us."

These phrases were a 'red flag' to me indicating that PaulB and I were not 'on the same page' when it comes to rightly dividing! Sometimes it is necessary to know where someone is coming from dispensationally if one is going to discuss a Bible issue with them...anybody's response to my proposed contradictions would let me know something about their thoughts on rightly dividing!

Surely we are all going to agree that ultimately the author of ALL the passages I cited is GOD himself. (II Tim. 3:16) And the God who gave us this completed revelation in the Authorized Version is the God who gave US - present-day church-age Christians right now - the illustrious privilege of being able to read these passages together, back-to-back, within a minute of each other if we so desire. The point is (and what I was trying to get across to PaulB) that WITHOUT APPLYING DISPENSATIONAL PRINCIPLES (I.E. 'RIGHTLY DIVIDING,') the plain words of Matthew 19:16-17 do not agree with Gal. 3:21, Titus 3:5, or Eph. 2:8-9. The 'plan of salvation,' the way to get saved, what to do to obtain eternal life - IS NOT THE SAME in these passages! Things that are DIFFERENT are not the SAME...they contradict!
(Just like James 2:24 contradicts Romans 3:28 UNLESS YOU RIGHTLY DIVIDE!) Since these 'plans of salvation' are DIFFERENT, we must choose by rightly dividing...if one (TODAY) chooses to try to obtain eternal life by keeping the commandments, as Jesus said in Matthew 19, HE WILL DIE AND GO TO HELL! So, I was trying to establish the importance of rightly dividing!
(Same thing on the divorce/remarriage issue; if the verses don't say the same thing, we are going to have to choose which one is FOR US!)

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

Posting via email and on forums can get a little hazardous. You can't see the person you're communicating with and you can't stop them and ask for clarification and such and then you get on a long thread and it gets a little confusing going back over the posts figuring exactly who said what. I always try and keep that in mind when posting and try and have a little more patience (which can be tough for me) because most likely I will never personally meet any of you until we get to heaven so I have to remember there are actual people on the other end of these posts. I thought about this as I was reading your (Pam) posts. I think I understand what you're saying although I probably would've worded it a bit different. I probably wouldn't say "Paul contradicted Jesus", but "that they were speaking to different audiences" or "unless you rightly divide the word of truth it will appear they are contradicting each other when in actuality they were speaking to different audiences". Every dispensationalist on this forum would agree with that and many have stated the importance of recognizing who Jesus was talking to versus who Paul was talking to. Correct me if I have misquoted or misrepresented you.

I know sometimes folks tend to or appear to come across harsh, but I believe that can be attributed to this is being a forum full of folks zealous for God's word and His truth. You just have to make up your mind your only goal is to know God and His word, then study His word and post what you believe He has shown you. Sometimes folks are going to agree with you and sometimes they ain't. Sometimes you may get misunderstood and sometimes you're going to misunderstand others. If you're the kind of person who can't take criticism, correction, or a little heat you might get discouraged, but hey its just a message board. Unless someone has developed the technology to be able to reach through the computer and grab my neck and start choking me I think I will be okay. I like to be challenged about what I believe or how else will I grow? One thing I am sure of, this forum will teach you to get in God's Word and find out what you believe and why you believe it which will keep you from getting tripped up by all of the false religion that's going on today inside and outside of the church.

[custer]

Originally Posted by CKG

Posting via email and on forums can get a little hazardous. You can't see the person you're communicating with and you can't stop them and ask for clarification and such and then you get on a long thread and it gets a little confusing going back over the posts figuring exactly who said what. I always try and keep that in mind when posting and try and have a little more patience (which can be tough for me) because most likely I will never personally meet any of you until we get to heaven so I have to remember there are actual people on the other end of these posts. I thought about this as I was reading your (Pam) posts. I think I understand what you're saying although I probably would've worded it a bit different. I probably wouldn't say "Paul contradicted Jesus", but "that they were speaking to different audiences" or "unless you rightly divide the word of truth it will appear they are contradicting each other when in actuality they were speaking to different audiences". Every dispensationalist on this forum would agree with that and many have stated the importance of recognizing who Jesus was talking to versus who Paul was talking to. Correct me if I have misquoted or misrepresented you.

I know sometimes folks tend to or appear to come across harsh, but I believe that can be attributed to this is being a forum full of folks zealous for God's word and His truth. You just have to make up your mind your only goal is to know God and His word, then study His word and post what you believe He has shown you. Sometimes folks are going to agree with you and sometimes they ain't. Sometimes you may get misunderstood and sometimes you're going to misunderstand others. If you're the kind of person who can't take criticism, correction, or a little heat you might get discouraged, but hey its just a message board. Unless someone has developed the technology to be able to reach through the computer and grab my neck and start choking me I think I will be okay. I like to be challenged about what I believe or how else will I grow? One thing I am sure of, this forum will teach you to get in God's Word and find out what you believe and why you believe it which will keep you from getting tripped up by all of the false religion that's going on today inside and outside of the church.

Thanks, Craig!

It does appear that you knew what I was trying to say...I just always find that pointing out apparent contradictions is a surefire (and quick) way to determine where someone stands dispensationally!

And thanks for the general forum advice; I really appreciate it...this is my first forum experience, and I am still learning. I see things very 'black and white' and have a hard time reading my own posts through someone else's eyes, if you know what I mean!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

[Amanda S.]

Sister Pam

I see things very 'black and white' and have a hard time reading my own posts through someone else's eyes, if you know what I mean!

Aint THAT the truth!

I told Bobby that I knew what you meant, but didn't know how to word it differently. But I'm sure we can all vouch that I'm not exactly the most edjeeekated gal on here.

[PaulB]

Hi Amanda (My fellow Sophist!!!!!!!!)

I also see things very black and white the trouble is that there are some who have a great deal of difficulty seeing things through my eyes (probably because I approach things from the plain meaning of Scripture rather than using C.I. Scofield’s notes as my rule of faith!)

Keep your head held high you’re doing us all proud!

God bless

PaulB