Originally Posted by Connie

I don't think the two doctrines are the extremes of some hypothetical correct position that supposedly lies in the middle somewhere, but I do think that's what people end up doing with it because of our inability to grasp things at God's level. Doctrinally I believe Calvinism is correct, and Arminianism is simply the result of being unable to fully grasp the Calvinist perspective, which is quite understandable since many Calvinists don't get it right either. It's easy to think yourself into a muddle on this subject.

I think connie you are relying upon human ingenuity and not the spirits teaching of the elect.. God reveals his truth to babes..and hides it from the wise and prudent..

matt 11:

25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

An understanding of the gospel truth comes from God not man.

1 jn 5:

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

I think connie you are relying upon human ingenuity and not the spirits teaching of the elect.. God reveals his truth to babes..and hides it from the wise and prudent..

I am just trying to speak in a way so as to be understood and hoping to be fair to my opponents. You seem to be implying that your opponents are not saved but I do not believe that. Believers all have different abilities and degrees of faith and none of us is going to get all of God's revelation right.

Jerry, you don't sound like an Arminian in many things you've said, such as this post:

The only salvation God gives is eternal - that means it lasts forever. It is also given freely, without works or merit - we could never earn it - that means we can also never lose it.

It is not presumption to believe what God says - and the Bible teaches that if someone rejects the truth and turns from it (apostasizes), they were never saved to begin with.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Even this parable shows that those who later turned away never truly believed in their heart - it was a shallow faith, headknowledge.

Luke 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Matthew 13:20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

am just trying to speak in a way so as to be understood and hoping to be fair to my opponents. You seem to be implying that your opponents are not saved but I do not believe that. Believers all have different abilities and degrees of faith and none of us is going to get all of God's revelation right.

But arminians are not believers..its a cult like mormons or jws they deny a key doctrine, salvation by grace..thats a serious serious infraction..

Paladin's open post:

Can a loving God predestinate people regarding their salvation? While it is impossible for God to allow any unsaved man condemned by the Law, would he refuse a man the chance to get salvation? I struggle with this thought. I do not accept predestination, but I want to hear your thoughts on the (much more specific) of: Can a loving God force someone to never gain salvation?

This is a typical misunderstanding of Calvinism. God is not forcing anything on anyone, or refusing salvation to anyone. He clearly says He wills that all be saved and He gave us the command to take the gospel into all the world so that all may hear it and believe or not believe. Everyone will be responsible for their sins and for their response to the gospel. What the scriptures about God's sovereign election and power do is give us a glimpse behind the scenes, seeing things from God's perspective, but from our perspective things remain the same -- we are given the choice and we make it and it's our responsibility. The concept of predestination really only becomes a help to us when we need to be sure our faith is resting on something solid and not on our own shaky wills.

I know that as long as I was in Arminian churches where they are always explaining hard times in terms of the devil's doing it, I would feel uneasy, as if the devil had way too much power. It was only when I had a grip on the Calvinist perspective that I was reassured that the devil is on God's leash, and that God is in charge of EVERYTHING that happens, absolutely everything. That gave me the assurance that NOTHING can happen without God's willing it. NOTHING. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. He doesn't make His decisions in present time but in eternity, so of COURSE we are predestined to salvation.

No they do NOT deny salvation by grace, Beloved57, they just get hung up on the wrong idea that if God is in charge of everything then we are like robots.

Originally Posted by Connie

No they do NOT deny salvation by grace, Beloved57, they just get hung up on the wrong idea that if God is in charge of everything then we are like robots.

They deny salvation by grace because salvation by grace is the same as election of grace..

rom 11:

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace,[election] then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The above is synomous to eph 2:

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The whole Ideal of grace is election..


They also deny that jesus christ death saves alone ..

And you too connie are not a true believer mam if you believe a false gospel is a true gospel there is only one gospel according to paul..

gal 1:

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

This is a typical misunderstanding of Calvinism. God is not forcing anything on anyone, or refusing salvation to anyone

Sure God refuses salvation to the non elect, he is against their conversion actively..

jn 12:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

God was actively against these people conversion.. vs 40 is plain to him who has eyes to see..

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by beloved57

Sure God refuses salvation to the non elect, he is against their conversion actively..

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

God was actively against these people conversion.. vs 40 is plain to him who has eyes to see..

Indeed.

Ro 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Ro 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Why do you deny that God does things ("for this cause") based on man's actions? The Bible tells us that God does not exercise infinite patience in waiting for people to respond to his callings. It also tells us that he will actively harden their hearts and "give them up" over to a "reprobate mind" (verse 28). I'll not even get into the problems of applying passages dealing with national repentance to individual salvation....

God was actively against these people conversion.. vs 40 is plain to him who has eyes to see..

Nevertheless He sends us "into all the world" with His gospel. That was my only point. As far as anything we can judge by ourselves about any particular situation where God has not revealed His will to us, as He did in that case, God's word is given to all and it's their responsibility how they respond to it. How He deals with individual persons is up to Him and beyond our ability to anticipate. Again, as far as we can judge on our own, the gospel is to be given to all and it is their choice how they respond.

Just curious: Do you actively evangelize, talk to people about the gospel? Do you pray for unsaved people?