Brothers George and Atlas, please take a few minutes and just breathe, okay? I'm not part of this Estep discussion, but I respect both of you guys enormously, and it grieves me to see you gettin' snarky with each other.

You both have been a spiritual encouragement to me, and no doubt to others in this forum; for the sake of the One Who died for us, please don't allow things to get out of hand.

I need you, both of you, and don't want to see you storming off over a disagreement.

[atlas]

VR,

Brothers George and Atlas, please take a few minutes and just breathe, okay?

I'm not mad, I think it's funny man!!!!!!






Atlas

[George]

Originally Posted by atlas

VR,
I'm not mad, I think it's funny man!!!!!!



Atlas

"FUNNY"?

What kind of a sense of humor do you have? This "discussion" is NOT FUNNY! It's pitiful. And if you would just stop a minute and stop recommending MEN or INSTITUTIONS or DICTIONARIES, you would see that your position on this issue is untenable!

Your appeal to men (even MC! ) in support of your position only "proves" that you don't have a Scriptural leg to stand on. Yo need to grow up and face facts instead of hiding behind men!

[atlas]

George,

It is funny. It's funny how you insult people, it's funny how you put down a man of God who has did more work for the Lord than you have.

Now 'm finished with this topic and I am laughing George. I'm laughing because I judge a man by his work's for the Lord and Dr. Estep has many and I only see a few from you.

I am grown George. I face facts every day of my life. I also know the facts about Dr. Estep. He is wrong on 2 issues that I know of and still a better man of God than you and I have ever been or will ever will. I'm not a preacher and it's not my job or calling. So that dose not bother me at all my friend. I'm happy for the work he has done, and it's 99% good works.

I'm sorry all of your churches split. I'm sorry it all did not work out for you. I wish it had not happened that way. I mean this also. I wish you would have built a great work and won many to the Lord. Sadly it did not happen this way.

Good day George and good luck with the move I hope all goes well. Thank you for the last insult the grow up comment. It made me laugh a little harder. I also am not kidding about the move, I do hope it all goes well for you my friend.




Atlas

[George]

Originally Posted by Vendetta Ride

Brothers George and Atlas, please take a few minutes and just breathe, okay? I'm not part of this Estep discussion, but I respect both of you guys enormously, and it grieves me to see you gettin' snarky with each other.

You both have been a spiritual encouragement to me, and no doubt to others in this forum; for the sake of the One Who died for us, please don't allow things to get out of hand.

I need you, both of you, and don't want to see you storming off over a disagreement.

Aloha VR,

I don't "enjoy" contending, but this issue (The HEADSHIP of The Lord Jesus Christ in HIS CHURCH) is of PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE.

The idea that a mere man (a SINNER) can take the Lord Jesus Christ's rightful place in HIS church is abhorrent to me - and this heresy should be despised by all Bible believing Christians.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church BY Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

No man, I repeat, NO MAN can take our Lord Jesus Christ's rightful place in HIS CHURCH! He PURCHASED it with HIS BLOOD for HIMSELF - NOT for some saved sinner to come along and try to steal HIS GLORY, by trying to REPLACE HIM in HIS church! This SIN has been the CURSE of "Christianity" from the very beginning, and still is.

Why should Bible believing Christians be satisfied with a "pope" in every pulpit, when they can have the "real thing" in Rome?

Again brother, I appreciate your concern in this matter, but if "Atlas" continues down the "road" he is on, he is going to end up substituting men, and men's opinions for his "final authority" - instead of the Holy Bible, which should be all Bible believers FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters of faith and practice. And if he ends up doing that, it will be due to his "respect of persons" - a poor "substitute" for obedience to God's words.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

WHO are all of these "good" and "godly" men that Atlas wants to honor and follow? WHO are we - but "foolish things"; "weak things"; "base things"; "things which are not" {We are NOTHING! HE IS EVERYTHING!}

And that goes for all of the "good", "godly", and "dedicated" men that are out there trying to REPLACE the Lord Jesus Christ in HIS church; or who are trying to REPLACE the Holy Spirit as the one and only "interpretor" of Scripture; or trying to REPLACE the Holy word of God {the Scriptures} as our FINAL AUTHORITY here on earth.

1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

In all 427 Posts that I have made on this Forum you will not find me "recommending" some man or men. I may recommend someone's books; I may defend a fellow brother in Christ if he is being wrongfully smeared or maligned; but I do NOT "recommend" men; or their schools; or any "institutions" they may establish.

We are to "glory" in God, and in our Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. Let's be done with "recommending" saved sinners! Instead:
"He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." AMEN & AMEN!

[Diligent]

Atlas,

I don't see what you find so funny about this. Here we have a Baptist preacher fabricating a doctrine that would make the Pope proud, someone who says with his own mouth that he is the head of his church and that Christ is not. Yeah, I get that you say he's wrong, but instead of judging the man on his doctrine (which is what a heretic is to be judged on), you decide to judge him on what you perceive is his "work" and then show a huge amount of respect of persons -- claiming to know the works of another man who is exposing the heresy.

Just... wow.

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

So, the next time you call out a modern version proponent on his falsehoods, are we to start comparing his works to yours to see who is right? Or do we look to truth and ensure that in all things Christ gets the preeminence (not a man)?

[atlas]

Diligent,

Luke 6:43

For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matt. 7:16

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Matt.7:20

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

This is talking about good and bad fruits. I have seen Dr. Esteps fruits with my own eyes. They are good.

Luke 6:44

For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

We can know the tree by it's fruit.

you decide to judge him on what you perceive is his " work " and then show a huge amount of respect of persons

I am going by what he told me. I'm also going by what I know to be facts about Dr. Estep and his fruit and the insults that George has handed out at will.

The insults are beyond funny. As are the never ending insults without apology. It's funny a Christian can act this way. It's kind of sad in a way but in an odd way very funny. But if you believe George, I can't read, I have not grown up MC is not a man. I do not believe the Bible. The list is not even worth typing.


Atlas

[George]

[quote=atlas;11552]

"George,
It is funny. It's funny how you insult people, it's funny how you put down a man of God who has did more work for the Lord than you have."

I have always believed (according to the Holy Bible) that we are to judge people by their FRUITS! [Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.] the JW's; Seventh Day Adventists; Mormons; Roman Catholics; etc. ALL have GOOD WORKS! God judges men's WORKS: [1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:] We are to look for "FRUIT"!

"Now 'm finished with this topic and I am laughing George. I'm laughing because I judge a man by his work's for the Lord and Dr. Estep has many and I only see a few from you."

There you go again - judging a matter without knowing all of the facts! And judging by "appearance", instead of righteous judgment.

"I am grown George. I face facts every day of my life. I also know the facts about Dr. Estep. He is wrong on 2 issues that I know of and still a better man of God than you and I have ever been or will ever will. I'm not a preacher and it's not my job or calling. So that dose not bother me at all my friend. I'm happy for the work he has done, and it's 99% good works."

And what of all the churches that "his pernicious doctrine" has split? Hmmm? What of all the families and friendships "his vicious doctrine" has destroyed? Hmmm? And what of all the Christian brethren who have been driven out of churches over "his corrupt doctrine"? Hmmm? And what of all the Christians that have been offended and who have stumbled because of "his heretical teachings? Hmmm? And what of all the lost people who have been offended by "his anti-biblical, mean-spirited, and hateful doctrine? Hmmm?

I guess, according to you, and those you follow, that a LITTLE LEAVEN really doesn't LEAVEN THE WHOLE LUMP!

"I'm sorry all of your churches split. I'm sorry it all did not work out for you. I wish it had not happened that way. I mean this also. I wish you would have built a great work and won many to the Lord. Sadly it did not happen this way."

"I'm sorry all of your churches split. I'm sorry it all did not work out for you." Where did you get that piece of information? Certainly NOT from me! ALL OF MY CHURCHES SPLIT! Not true!

First of all - I have NO churches!. Any church that I attend belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ - NOT me or any other man!

Secondly - I have been attending the SAME CHURCH (locally) for about 15 years - so "all of your churches split" is a LIE! It's simply NOT TRUE!

Thirdly - It has worked out quite well for me, thank you. I'm saved by God's Grace; I have been Kept by His Grace; and I have been blessed above most men to have the wife and family that I have, and the Christian friends that I cherish.

You see what happens when you "judge" a matter without knowing all of the facts? You end up looking like?

"Good day George and good luck with the move I hope all goes well. Thank you for the last insult the grow up comment. It made me laugh a little harder. I also am not kidding about the move, I do hope it all goes well for you my friend."

Atlas

"Good Luck"? That's strange, coming from a "Bible believer". I don't believe in "LUCK"! All of my comings and goings are in His Hands - "LUCK" has absolutely NOTHING to do with it!

I told you to "grow up" because your conduct on this Forum is often "childish" and "immature". Perhaps someday you will see the truth in what I have said, if not, then you won't be able to say "nobody ever warned me".

It makes me sad that you "think" that this is a "laughing matter"! There is absolutely NOTHING FUNNY about two Christians that cannot get along. I think it is tragic! But then again, it does make "manifest" the difference between your "attitude" and mine - and the brethren can now "judge" between us, as to who has conducted himself according to the Scriptures, and who hasn't.

[MC1171611]

I find it sad, really. A man who is so tied up on one single issue that he cannot see past and reacts with such bile when entreated is unbiblical and very disturbing. I too have a lot of respect for George, but as a result of this thread I'm reconsidering some things.

George, if you think Bro. Estep is a heretic, then so be it. Regardless of what you'll say to the contrary, I provided Scripture to show that regardless of the situation, the response from you was unwarranted. Ignore me if you like; I really couldn't care less. I don't need validation from you, Atlas, or anyone else. I appreciate a brother publicly standing with me on an issue, but "let God be true, but every man a liar." When someone is overemphasized for any reason, like has been done on this topic with Bro. Estep (again, a man I know personally and I have seen the fruits of his work first-hand), the Lord Jesus Christ and His word are removed from the spotlight, and replaced with a man that had a doctrine wrong. Regardless of what's on the pedestal for whatever reason, it's still wrong. God wants the glory, and I must say He got very little glory after you began posting about Bro. Estep.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by atlas

Diligent,

The insults are beyond funny. As are the never ending insults without apology. It's funny a Christian can act this way. It's kind of sad in a way but in an odd way very funny. But if you believe George, I can't read, I have not grown up MC is not a man. I do not believe the Bible. The list is not even worth typing.

For a moment address me and what I am saying. I don't speak for George and he doesn't speak for me either. I'd like to try to get past the personal invective and get you to focus on the meat of this matter.

The verses you provided about trees and bearing fruit are important, but what we're talking about here is heresy, which is a leaven. All manner of good works (which are necessary in the Kingdom) do not change leaven. Further, this still stands:

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

If it can be shown that someone has done work outside of the truth, and has taken for himself the glory of that work, how is it God's?

It is telling that nobody has mounted an earnest defense of Estep's outrageous "doctrine" here. The transcribed quotes where he blatantly and unabashedly claims headship over his church and tells people to go to a human mediator instead of our One Mediator are utterly indefensible. I do not understand how anyone (a Bible Believer) could give him a pass over this. Does it matter what else he has "done" when he is taking for himself the preeminence of Christ? Why recommend this man once being shown his damnable doctrine?

Cults are full of good works. We don't give them a pass on their doctrine because they feed the hungry and help the needy. People get saved reading the NIV; we don't then say the NIV is "bearing good fruit" and give it a pass when it takes God out of Jesus. This is no minor issue!

Now what I can understand is not knowing what Estep teaches. But once that is made clear, a Bible Believer really does need to decide if he is going to tolerate a man (any man!) usurping the headship of Christ's Church, if even just to wink at it so "more good works" can be done without the hardship of calling out the heresy.

Offered in sincerity and brotherly love,