[George]

Originally Posted by atlas

George,

Is he an apostate or committed apostasy?

yes____ or no_____


Now either he is an apostate or he is not. Witch is it?

apostasy

Let me state this again.

I told you I agree with you on this false doctrine issue. He is not right on this issue.

So this issue is not up for debate. Why debate if we agree? This is of little or no value.

This is the question.

Is Dr. Greg Estep and apostate?

Now you prove he left the faith and renounced Jesus Christ and I'll agree that he is an apostate, until then he is not an apostate. I also want you to prove he left the faith. Send me the CD, book or tape. Then we all will call him an apostate, because that is what he will be.

Atlas

Aloha brother Atlas,

I don't have to "prove" anything. You artfully "dodged" all of my questions with a "question" of your own. {A clever ruse practiced by Sophists who have no interest in the truth. And a "practice" that I have not seen you engaged in before, and unworthy of you.}

I asked you if: what Greg Estep taught ("The Doctrine of Submission") was "heresy"? And if it is "heresy" - WHAT does that MAKE him? (Whether Estep is a total "Apostate" and "Apostasy" had nothing to do with the question. Are you going to "CHANGE" the Holy word of God to say: "A man that is an apostate after the first and second admonition reject;" - so that you can continue to recommend a "heretick"?)

He is either a "Heretic" or he isn't! If he is a "Heretic"we are to: REJECT HIM! NOT CONTINUE TO RECOMMEND HIM! Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;{A "HERETIC" is SOMEONE who teaches "HERESY"! There are no ifs , ands or buts about the matter! }

Now the Holy Bible is absolutely clear on this matter, so until you answer this question that I posed to you first, (and some of the others) without equivocation and/or obfuscation, I refuse to engage you in this matter any further.

Except to say that if you are being taught that we are to "TOLERATE" "heresy" and "Heretics" (because they are not total "Apostates") you are being taught something the is in direct contradiction to the commandment of God!

Apostasy (in the church of God) has always begun from within. It begins with men (elders/pastors/teachers) who are respected and admired by the brethren, but who are in reality "wolves in sheep's clothing" [Matthew 7:15]. These "good" and "godly" men begin by teaching just a "little leaven" at first; and after they are established as "authorities", they bring in their damnable heresies and false doctrines.

We are not instructed in the Scriptures to TOLERATE heresies and heretics until they become total "Apostates" and "leaven" the whole church - we are told to REJECT THEM and their HERESIES. We are to remain "UNLEAVENED"! We are to "PURGE OUT THE OLD LEAVEN"! It couldn't be more "clear", unless someone is trying to "circumvent" the Holy word of God because of "respect of persons".

Deuteronomy 1:17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.

Deuteronomy 16:19 Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous.

2 Chronicles 19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

Proverbs 24:23 These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment.

Proverbs 28:21 To have respect of persons is not good: for for a piece of bread that man will transgress.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Colossians 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Job 13:10 He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.

Job 32:21 Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man.
22 For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

WHY does a Bible believing Christian desire to continue to have fellowship with a heretic? And WHY would a genuine Bible believer want to continue to recommend a man who has been clearly shown (exposed) to be a "heretic"? WHY?

[atlas]

George,

I did not think you would answer a simple question and I was right.





Atlas

Originally Posted by George

Aloha aussiemama,

Your "judgment" in this matter is in error. You have a whole lot to learn, and if you don't stop judging matters, of which you know little or nothing about, you will never learn to "judge righteous judgment".

Okay, I might be taking my life in my hands, but I'm gonna have to stick up for Aussiemama. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any of her particular remarks, but she is very much a "work in progress." I knew her at another forum, months ago, and she could be pretty ill-tempered: however, at that time, she was in, shall we say, "a delicate condition." I've noticed a world of difference in her posts here. If she sometimes trips over her own tongue, so do we all.

Most important, she's aware of her own tendencies, and is trying to correct them, as witness the link below. We should encourage her in her growth, not lay the smackdown on her - - - although I know, Brother George, that such was not your intention.

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread....0776#post10776

LOL thanks VR I really am trying, but I don't always do that well. Anyway I just want you to know that the situation you were referring to from another site has been put right just a few days ago, although I still don't agree with the decision I WAS very bad tempered.

I don't understand how I supposedly did anything wrong in this thread as I just wrote what I think like everyone else did. But I apologize if I offended anyway. I also understand that I did start one thread for the wrong reason, but don't really understand the accusation that I have tried to stir the pot elsewhere on here. If anyone can enlighten me I'd be glad to know where I have offended anyone.

Thanks.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by aussiemama

LOL thanks VR I really am trying, but I don't always do that well. Anyway I just want you to know that the situation you were referring to from another site has been put right just a few days ago, although I still don't agree with the decision I WAS very bad tempered.

I don't understand how I supposedly did anything wrong in this thread as I just wrote what I think like everyone else did. But I apologize if I offended anyway. I also understand that I did start one thread for the wrong reason, but don't really understand the accusation that I have tried to stir the pot elsewhere on here. If anyone can enlighten me I'd be glad to know where I have offended anyone.

Thanks.

I too had noticed that you have a tendency to stir the pot (I have a tendency to do this myself). If you are like me, then you must make extra efforts to really consider if this is something worth commenting on, but more importantly do you have the information needed in order to make an informed comment. The problem with this instance is that you commented into the middle of one of the most heated discussions we've had here on this wonderful forum (it really is, God has truly blessed us with this forum). The name "Dr. Peter S. Ruckman" seems to be a battle line in this day and age, and we true Bible Believers recognize this for what it is and defend this man, who has been the teacher of so many, in light of this attack (which is really an attack on the Word of God which brother Ruckmand defends vehemently). Then we had the name Greg Estep come up, and George and others feel, for very important reasons, something about this man is either positive or destructive. Now, since the doctrines being debated in this thread are VERY serious, getting them straightened out was and is important. This discussion should have been unhindered by spurious and uninformed comments. To FINALLY make my point, it would have been wise to have just observed this one as a lurker.

VR and others say you're still young in the faith. I don't know if this is true, since I don't know you personally, but I'll assume for the moment you are. When I was still trying to get a grasp on the Word of God, I found that the best way to really get the big picture of the really critical doctrinal books of the Bible (the ones that start with the word "Paul") I had to just sit down and read them from start to finish. I know that some of them are long, but the error I think a lot of young Christians make is that they try to over analyze small chunks of Scriptures (I think people get this study habit from the fact that most preachers only read small sections of Scripture at a time in their preaching). So, that's what I would suggest for you. Really just hit one of Paul's letters from front to end, praying that God would open up the Scriptures to you, and would bless you with eyes to see, and ears to hear. You will be blessed. God is in the business of blessing the faithful that seek Him in His Word.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

Don't sweat it, sister. We're all under a lot of pressure right now. It's not just the election; I can see the Enemy moving in a lotof people's lives, including my own. We all need to pray more and talk less!

[George]

Originally Posted by atlas

George,

I did not think you would answer a simple question and I was right.



Atlas

Now let's see:

In my Post #52 (This Thread) I asked approximately 65 questions - all of which you avoided answering!

I also made Posts #57 & 67 in regards to Estep - which you also totally ignored!

You then came back and said that you will still support and recommend Estep, and I answered with my Post #82 - where I asked about 12 questions - all of which you chose to ignore and then "cleverly" tried to turn the tables through mis-direction by trying to "CHANGE" the subject from whether Greg Estep teaches "Heresy" and thereby is a "Heretic" {My Questions}; to whether he is a full on "Apostate" (Your Question).

Until this exchange, I had a higher opinion of you and just thought that your belligerent attitude was due to youth and zeal. BUT, for someone who went "bonkers" over brother Ruckman holding a different belief about WHEN the soul begins, and who railed on and on and on (ad nauseum - and I might add without hardly any Scriptures to support your "rant"), I find it incredible (actually beyond belief) that you not only have refused to answer at least some of my approximately 94 questions regarding Estep and his "heresy & false teachings", but that you have the "audacity" to take a "cheap shot" at me for REFUSING to answer your subterfuge until you at least have the integrity to answer at least a couple of my questions!

You have not dealt with one single point that I have made in all of my previous posts, except to say that "I will admit he is wrong on this doctrine"! "THIS DOCTRINE"! Why compared to your "problem" with brother Ruckman (on when the soul begins), "THIS DOCTRINE" is like comparing Mt. Everest ("The Doctrine of Submission") to a "mole Hill" (when the soul begins)!

Do you not understand that Estep and his followers are trying to DISPLACE the Lord Jesus Christ in HIS CHURCH? Is there any higher BLASPHEMY on this earth than that? If there is - please tell me WHAT it is!

You "flip-out" over Ruckman having a difference of "opinion" over when the soul begins (an issue that has been debated for centuries), and then turn around and IGNORE THE MOST PERNICIOUS & CORRUPT DOCTRINE ON EARTH! And all because you: "still think Dr. Estep is a good man and is a man of God. And you will "still recommend him to anyone. He is not an apostate no matter what George or others may say." {I repeat myself, for the last time - I NEVER SAID HE WAS AN "APOSTATE"! I said he teaches "HERESY" and thus is a "HERETIC"!

CAN'T YOU READ? Read my words! See if you can find where I said he was an "Apostate". "Respect of persons" is the "bane" of modern day Christianity. Perhaps someday you will find that out, and on the other hand - by the direction you are going, you may never find it out!

Titus 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. {NOT "RECOMMEND" THEM! }

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their PERNICIOUS WAYS; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

I will not have time to answer any more of your accusations or mis-directions, since shortly I will be moving and will not have access to a computer for a few weeks. However, I expect another "cheap shot", since I now see that this is your "M.O." (Modus Operandi)! I'm old and I'm slow, and I'm not that bright, but eventually - even I can get a person's "number".

[MC1171611]

Greg Estep teaches (taught) a wrong doctrine, but from what I've seen, even including the painstaking transcripts from his messages, he truly believed that what he taught lined up with the Bible. He was not trying to take authority that had not (in his mind) already been given to him as a pastor: he felt it his duty to have that authority because of his misinterpretation of the Scriptures. He was wrong, but he was sincere and as honest as a human could be in his error.

Heresy is when someone willingly rejects the truth or solid doctrine of the Scriptures. Jim Jones was a heretic. Joe Smith was a heretic. Mary Baker Eddy was a heretic.

Greg Estep is not a heretic.

*insert beat-a-dead-horse smiley again*

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by George

You artfully "dodged" all of my questions with a "question" of your own.

I always tell my students, "Never answer a question with a question."

[atlas]

George,

Until this exchange, I had a higher opinion of you.

Well now you have a lower opinion of me, big deal. The way you insult folks like MC and I. Your opinion means very little to me.

CAN'T YOU READ?

Call Clemson University and ask them? They do not give economics degrees to just anyone. You can also call TBDI, maybe one of the guys there will tell you if I can read.

I expect another "cheap shot"

I have not given you any cheep shots. You seem to be the one giving out those. You asking people if they can read calling people all kinds of names, then you question someones manhood and my intelligence. I think you are the cheep shot master on this post.

I will judge a man by his works.

Dr. Greg Estep:

Started a church in 1977, church is still going. Started Bible college, it's still going. I have herd Dr. Estep preach for about 20 years. So far he has been spot on every time. I have known some of the preachers that went to his college and are preachers and pastors. I know they are doing a good work for the Lord. I have took some of the classes he teaches at the Bible college I attend, he was spot on other than the the gap. I have met people that go to his church. They were good folks and soul winners.


George Anderson:

Runs a website and post on a Bible forum. Has been a member of many churches that split and former members and family have nothing to do with each other. Reasons for church splits, BJU guys and Greg Estep.

It seems like this so called heretic Greg Estep has done a little more for the Lord than you have George.


I see no reason to continue this topic. You may if you wish.

I told you I agree with you on the issue, and their was no reason to talk about that issue any more. I ask you one simple question and you refuse to answer.


I see no reason to continue this topic. You may if you wish.





Atlas