[Luke]

I have read many Lordship proponents refer to H A Ironside as being Lordship Salvation in doctrine, mainly because he wrote a book called "Except Ye Repent". I am reading it and am not finding anything lordship in it. I am finding a biblical definition of repentance - a change of mind about sin, that results in a change of life AFTER salvation.

Dr Ironside said -

"When anyone comes promising salvation to those 'who make full surrender' of all that they have to God, and who 'pay the price of full salvation' he is preaching another gospel, for the price was paid on Calvary's cross and the work that saves is finished. It was Christ Jesus who made the full surrender when He yielded His life on Calvary that saves us, not our surrender in any way to Him."

I am starting to think more and more that men like John MacArthur and Ray Comfort are not only teaching false doctrine, but are satanically inspired. JM has written a book all about the COST of SALVATION.

Jesus come quickly.

I'm going to add to this a bit

Ray Comfort has appeared on Joyce Meyer's TV show. He has also appeared at a conference with other Word Faith heretics, such as Jesse Duplantis. As far as I know, he did not openly rebuke them, but taught his method to them. Ray is dangerous ground, and I think this is one of Satan's most subtle attacks against the gospel of the GRACE of God, but the devil leaves signs because he is imperfect, and we can see his handiwork if we look.

[atlas]

Luke,

I have read many Lordship proponents refer to H A Ironside as being Lordship Salvation in doctrine, mainly because he wrote a book called "Except Ye Repent". I am reading it and am not finding anything lordship in it.

Many of the Lordship folks try to make out like H.A. Irnoside is on their side. This is not the case. Lordship salvation and repentance are not the same thing. This is the error of their way. They do not even know the difference between lordship salvation and repentance. This is how far the apostates have came. Repentance is a very simple doctrine to understand. These apostates can not even understand a very simple Bible doctrine.

I have also read the book " Except Ye Repent ". It has nothing whatsoever do with lordship salvation. Never forget as Ruckman would tell you, all apostates are liars. If anyone want this book in an ebook PDF email me and I'll send it to you. I found it somewhere on line but I have forgotten where. It's a wonderful book.


Atlas

Here is my two cents...

Lordship salvation - repentance and faith, one must produce fruit after salvation
Moderate Free grace - repentance and faith, one SHOULD product fruit after salvation
Free Grade - faith, no expectation of fruit after salvation

I have never held to Free Grace. I used to hold to Moderate Free Grace. But, I now hold to Lordship salvation as I have defined above.

Lordship Salvation tends to be the Calvinistic position while Moderate Free Grace is the non-Calvinistic position.

Ray Comfort has appeared on Joyce Meyer's TV show. He has also appeared at a conference with other Word Faith heretics, such as Jesse Duplantis. As far as I know, he did not openly rebuke them, but taught his method to them. Ray is dangerous ground, and I think this is one of Satan's most subtle attacks against the gospel of the GRACE of God, but the devil leaves signs because he is imperfect, and we can see his handiwork if we look.

I have met Ray (and Kirk) through the Way of the Master Ambassador Academy. They are men like the rest of us. They do good and bad. I think the basic system of using the Law in evangelism is good. Ray's mission is to preach the gospel and encourage others to do so. He goes to work on a bicycle and his personal office is very plain. He is not one of those rich fat cats. Remember, the lost people who attend Joyce's conferences need the gospel. When he goes to speak to them, he is giving them the gospel. Sure he is polite and respectful of them because he is allowing the Word of God to have its perfect work in them.

[Josh]

The belief that one must produce fruit to be saved is defined in the Bible as a false doctrine. It is said about he who preaches these things, "...let him be acursed.". The Bible is very clear that all that is needed for salvation was finished by Christ on Calvary. Nothing more is needed, all you must do is believe. That's it, anything more a works based salvation, and is heresy according to God Himself.

Josh...

You are mixing up justification and sanctification. Justification is what declares us to be righteous on the basis of Christ's merits and blood atonement but it does not make us righteous. After we are justified, God then begins His work of sanctification in us which begins to make us righteous. This process is completed at our glorification.

Therefore, based upon my definition of Lordship salvation:

repentance and faith = justification
produce fruit = sanctification

I contend that all those who are justified will begin the process of sanctification. This sanctification does not justify them it is merely the evidence of a person's justification.

In Christian circles when a person says they are "saved" they are refering to justification not sanctification.

[Brother Tim]

Justification is what declares us to be righteous on the basis of Christ's merits and blood atonement but it does not make us righteous. After we are justified, God then begins His work of sanctification in us which begins to make us righteous.

Please back up the two underlined portions of your statement with Scripture.

Take a look at Romans 7. Paul is describing this conflict between the old and new man. While he is legally righteous (justified) he is not inherently righteous. He still sins. Sure, he is growing in the faith and becoming more like Christ, but he still deals with the old man. Yet, even at this point in his growth he is still legally righteous because of Christ even though he is not completely righteous (sinless).

This was the great debate between Luther and the Roman church. Luther taught "simul iustus et peccator" which means that we are both justified (declared righteous) and sinner. Rome refused to accept that God would declare a person righteous when they were in fact not. Therefore, Rome includes sanctification as a component of justification instead of seperating the two as the Reformers did. This idea of being declared righteous and then growing in righteousness versus becoming righteous first and then being declared justified is the entire hinge upon which the Reformation hung.

declared righteous = justification
becoming righteous = sanctification

Hope this helps...

One more thing - we cannot earn justification it is totally of grace. No Lordship person would ever claim that a person can earn justification. Their issue has to do with result of justification. The result is that a person will begin down the path of sanctification. If they do not begin down the path then they were never justified in the first place...

Remember Jesus said we will know people by their fruit. The fruit does not make a person saved or unsaved, it just reveals their condition. Bad fruit cannot come from a good tree and good fruit cannot come from a bad tree...

[Brother Tim]

Here are a few verses to chew on:

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Jesus Himself is sanctified. Does this mean that He was made righteous over a period of time?!

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Christ IS our RIGHTEOUSNESS as well as our SANCTIFICATION.

And there are plenty more that discredit your definition and application.

Brother Tim - Please consider my explanation again. On the whole my explanation reflects the orthodox interpretation of salvation from the Bible for all Protestants (and Baptists). To deny these essentials of justification and sanctification (forget the Lordship part) is to place yourself outside the faith (kind of like denying the Trinity). You tread on dangerous ground here.

Also, please remember I am using the terms justification and sanctification as theological terms not a word for word linking with the scriptures.