[Biblestudent]

Someone asked me this question: "When was paradise brought from Abraham's bosom to the third heaven?" What say ye?

When Jesus ascended. Until He died on the cross (ie. the veil of His body was torn), no believer (or anyone for that matter) could dwell in the presence of God. When Jesus ascended back to Heaven, this is what happened:

Ephesians 4:8-10 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Psalms 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

There are several other verses that refer to those that are dead as imprisoned (ie. captives).

Isaiah 24:21-22 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The Bible also teaches that as of His death, burial and resurrection, that all believers that die now go immediately to be with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:21-23 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

As you mentioned, Paradise is now in the presence of God, whereas even at Christ's crucifixion it was not yet:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

[Biblestudent]

Another question asked to me related to this was, "What happened to the dead bodies raised in Matthew 27:52? Did they go up with Jesus in Acts 1? Were they the ones referred to in Ephesians4:8-10?"

There is no evidence that they ascended. They were like Lazarus' resurrection - temporary, and they later died again. Jesus was the first one to be raised immortal, according to 1 Corinthians 15.

Were they the ones referred to in Ephesians4:8-10?

It says Jesus took captivity captive. If they were already resurrected, then Jesus would be releasing them from any kind of captivity at His ascension. The NT teaches that now that the veil has been torn, all believers go immediately to dwell in God's presence when they die. Also, this passage is referring to those imprisoned under the earth:

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The word for preached here means "public herald". When Jesus died, He went to Abraham's Bosom (where Abraham and Lazarus were, and where the thief was shortly going to come), and from there announced to those wicked that were suffering (such as the rich man, and all others that had perished since the creation of the world) that He had conquered and was victorious. Then He arose on the third day, ascended to His Father sometime later in that day (after speaking to Mary Magdalene, but before going to the locked room where His disciples were), then stayed with His disciples for 40 days and ascended to dwell in Heaven (Hebrews 9:24) - I believe this 2nd ascension was when He took those captive righteous souls to Heaven.

Again, those who were resurrected when Jesus died were not raised immortal - and Hebrews 12 clearly indicates that no resurrected souls are in Heaven:

Hebrews 12:22-24 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

In Heaven, we can see the church (ie. those who have died so far), and the SPIRITS of OT saints - not their bodies, they were not resurrected immortal yet.

[Biblestudent]

Thanks, Jerry! I believe the same way you do.

[George]

04-01-2008, 06:09 AM - DOCTRINE - When paradise was transferred?

Jerry said:

When Jesus ascended. Until He died on the cross (ie. the veil of His body was torn), no believer (or anyone for that matter) could dwell in the presence of God. When Jesus ascended back to Heaven, this is what happened:

What happened to Enoch? {Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.} Took him where?

What happened to Moses? {Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.} What happened to Moses' body?

What happened to Elijah? {2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.} Where did Elijah go?

I pretty much agree with brother Jerry with the exception of these three men of God:

Enoch: a type of a born again believer that will never die, but is "raptured" into God's presence.

Moses: A type of Jewish believer that dies (during the Tribulation - ministering to Israel); is resurrected and dies again in the Millennium; to be resurrected again at the end of the Millennium at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Elijah: A type of Jewish believer that is "raptured" during the Tribulation; returns to earth and dies in the Millennium - to be resurrected again at the end of the Millennium at the Great White Throne Judgment.


There are two more "types", that although they weren't raptured or resurrected, seem to fit in with God's people (Jews & Gentiles) in the Tribulation:

Noah: A type of Gentile (a "sheep") that goes through the Tribulation and passes the "judgment of the nations" [Matthew 25: 31-46] and dies in the Millennium - to be resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Jonah: A type of Jewish believer that dies (during the Tribulation - ministering to the Gentiles); is resurrected and dies again in the Millennium; to be resurrected again at the end of the Millennium at the Great White Throne Judgment.

If someone disagrees with me on this one - I won't argue with them since this not a doctrine that I can prove without a doubt.

[Biblestudent]

What happened to those three men? Good question, Bro. George. That question came across my mind in Bible school but have not taken the time to seriously look into that until now.
But here's what I was thinking of. Maybe, just a GUESS, Enoch was taken to Abraham's bosom (paradise). Moses' was buried by God in an unknown graveyard and his soul brought to Abraham's bosom (paradise). I think Elijah was visibly taken up into heaven (the first heaven) and then taken to Abraham's bosom after that, instead of the third heaven.

[bibleprotector]

Jewish believer that dies (during the Tribulation - ministering to the Gentiles)

There Scripture does not indicate that the Jews should minister to the Gentiles, except for the early Church (Jews = firstfruits). The Scripture shows that before the return of Christ, indeed, even before the tribulation period begins, the Gentiles are supposed to be ministering to the Jews.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Ro 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Ro 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

But the latter end is that the Jews hear and receive the Gospel from the Gentiles.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Mt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Ro 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Ro 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Ro 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Therefore, there must be Jewish believers.

[George]

Re: Post #8 - "Bibleprotector"

There will be Jewish believers, however there will be Gentiles that the Jews will preach and minister to at that time: Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-20; Luke 24:44-48; and Acts 1:1-8.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The disciples never did complete this commandment or commission - but the Jews (possibly the 144,000?) in the Great Tribulation will.

[bibleprotector]

The foundation of what I am saying is the idea of the Jew first and the Gentile second.

Matthew 28:19, 20 - The Great Commission is to the Church, the Church first witnessed to the Jews, and then to the Gentiles. Therefore, it is the Church today (and comprised of mainly Gentiles) that is to witness to the Jews. The great commission is about converting nations. This clearly means Gentile nations as well as the nation of Israel. Not every nation is going to be converted, but the promise of the Scripture is that the Jews should be converted. I have pointed out previously numerous verses which show that it is Gentile Christians who should preach to the Heathen Jews.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Mt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Ro 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Ro 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Ro 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Mark 16:15 - The Church is to go into all the world. That certainly includes believers presently going to the Jews. This going forth has been happening since the martyrdom of Stephen all the way to the present time, and should be fulfilled before the Tribulation.

Acts 1:8 - The Gospel has come to the uttermost parts of the Earth: Protestant denominations are established in New Zealand and Australia. Note that it was not Jewish Christians who preached the Gospel, but Gentile Christians.

I am not saying that there is anything superior or inferior to Jewish nor Gentile Christians, but that Christians should witness to the Jews as much as Christians should witness to all nations. Historically, from the death of the Apostle John, the preaching of the Gospel has been by Gentiles, not Jews.

The fulfilment of the promise of world wide evangelism is not in any case specified to Jewish Christians.

The disciples never did complete this commandment or commission

The Church has, is and will fulfil this commandment or commission. There is no reason to wait for the Great Tribulation for the converting of Jews, nor is there a reason to defer responsibility (or a "greater calling") to 140,000 specially chosen Jews, when I have already pointed out the high and great calling that we have today laid in front of us, namely, that we are to put into motion the converting of the Jews.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." (Romans 11:25).

In other words, it is our Gospel by us which must go to all nations, all the world, unto the uttermost part of the earth, and that we would be used of God to reach the Jews, to compassionately bring them into equality of faith with us.

Therefore, it must be that the greatest wave of evangelisation that the world is yet to see must be on the initialisation of the final conversion of the Jews, and that there should be powerful witness before the tribulation by a holy, sanctified Church with great power:

“But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith” (Romans 16:26).

“All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.” (Isaiah 18:3).

“For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth” (Col. 1:5, 6).

“Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:46-48).

Why defer to the tribulation when the Church Bride has departed what should be accomplished presently when the Church is here and under obligation to obey Christ's commandment.