[chette777]

whirlly,

alogoration of the scriptures in Luke 9:30, 31 truly show you are not rightly dividing and like Eve are adding to the word of God. we are told to rightly divide not rightly join scriptures.

Please you are borderline seemingly a borderline heretic. let's see if that changes in the next few posts

[greenbear]

Whirlwind, I'm sorry you are so confused now but I would be happy to have the chance to say "I told you so" when our Lord has delivered His body from the wrath to come.

Originally Posted by greenbear

Whirlwind, I'm sorry you are so confused now but I would be happy to have the chance to say "I told you so" when our Lord has delivered His body from the wrath to come.

There would be no need to "tell me so" for I agree with you completely. Our Lord will certainly deliver His body from the wrath. It is His promise. He also tells us what He expects from us during the tribulation....the tribulation and wrath are two separate events.

Mark 13:9-11 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

13:24-27 But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBUALTION, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And THEN SHALL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The wrath is for those that take the mark during the tribulation, during Satan's "hour of temptation." We are kept from the temptation as we know the truth of Satan coming first pretending to be Christ. We won't be tempted and so...we won't take the mark. The testimony of the witnesses, the many witnesses , during this time is when the Holy Spirit speaks through them. Many will hear and understand the truth. They are sealed.

[peopleoftheway]

Mr Whirlwind

After 34 posts of... "many witnesses", "spiritual Israel", "God has revealed to me" and "I used to believe like you did" I for one have grown tired reading your posts, why? you ask, because I can testify by the Spirit of God who lives and abides in me that I am not a part of "Spiritual Israel" I am a sinner saved by Grace, a Dog (Gentile) who has been given Eternal life through the rejection of The real Israel's Messiah and his crucifixion, the subsequent shedding of his precious Blood for the remission of my sins and his Glorious resurrection to be seated at the right hand of the Father.
The rejection of the King Of Kings, Lord of Lords by the nation of Israel caused the Lord God Almighty to turn to the Gentiles to provoke Israel to Jealousy that when the "fullness of the Gentiles" is come, the Lord God Of Israel will "once again" deal with his chosen people ISRAEL!

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Romans 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Romans 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their
fulness?
Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Now.... where!! in the whole of the Pauline epistles does the Apostle refer to the gentiles as "Spiritual Israel"? God turned his attention from Israel to the Gentiles (A different people)
What really gets to me about people who claim some "new revelation" of what the Bible says is that there is somewhat of an obsession with this "so called revelation of scripture" and you fit right in there by incessantly banging on about the "two witnesses" being "many witnesses" the Church being "Spiritual Israel" and that we as the Body Of Christ will have to go through the tribulation, all these "revelations" you claim here are from NOT putting scripture in context as to "Whom it is written to"

What you fail to realise is that "The translation" of the saints before tribulation has to happen for one important reason

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Gods Spirit must be taken from the earth to allow the man of sin to be revealed (May I add that The Holy Spirits work as far as the Church is concerned will be finished, but he shall still convict during tribulation), the Body of Christ is what restrains the man of sin at this time, you think we as Born again Children of God filled with the Holy Ghost would roll over and play dead? of course not we would hinder the son of perditions intentions, the Body of Christ shall first be taken out of the way (translated) , the Lord Jesus Christ suffered once Bodily that we may be free, from Jew to Gentile through his affliction and persecution his unimaginable sufferings on Calvary FOR US , yet while he cried out "Finished" IT WAS!
The tribulation "the time of Jacobs trouble" IS specifically FOR ISRAEL, God will once again deal with his People While God is dealing with His people (Israel) His Son Jesus Christ will be claiming the prize for which he died, US, the Body of Christ!
You may believe what you chose to believe about "Spiritual Israel", "many witnesses", "mid / post trib translation" but please NOTE that no one here on this forum is agreeing with your "private interpretation" of what YOU believe scripture to say rather than rightly dividing the word of truth as to what it REALLY says.
You interpretations and "spiritualism" of Gods Holy scripture are a sure indication to me as to the state of the Body Of Christ and the fulfilling of this scripture

2 Thessalonians 2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The totally apostate nature of the Body of Christ and the departure from SOUND Bible believing doctrine in these last few years to "new revelations" "deeper spiritual understanding" than many Godly Brethren have been teaching and preaching for centuries is warning enough that many are "falling away" from Gods truth.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by greenbear

Chette, just when I start to think you are being hard-headed about the identity of the two witnesses clearly being Moses and Elijah you come up with verses I've never noticed before (Zec 4:3, 14) that clinch it!

God bless you, brother.

Jennifer

Doh!!!

All the way back in Post 13 Tonybones said:

The Two Witnesses are Moses and Elijah, the two Candlesticks and the Two Olive Trees that stand before the throne of God in Zechariah. Moses turned water to blood, Elijah held up the rain. I'll be doing a Bible Study on Enoch as soon as the antibiotics kicks in.

Grace and peace

Tony

Chette brought out the insight that:

Zec 4:3, 14And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. . . Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

but what does make it clear that it is Moses an Elijah is the fact that only these two men ever stood with the Lord in glory. that is supported by Zec 4:3, 14. Luke 9:30, 31 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

IN order for them to speak they have to have stood by him just as Rev11:4 says that they stand by the Lord.

[greenbear]

I'm not sure if this was already mentioned:

Jesus said to the multitudes referring to John the Baptist, And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. Matthew 11:14

John (a forerunner of Elijah) was beheaded by Herod.

The Two Witnesses are probably beheaded (by the anti-christ).

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[MightyAngel]

Originally Posted by johnlf

Scripture tells us about two witnesses who will prophesy 1260 days in Jerusalem. Who are these witnesses? Let’s begin with the main verse, Book of Revelation chapter 11, verses 3 through 12:

[B][I]11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Hello johnlf (and everyone else)

Just so you know this is my first time to AV1611 forums and my very first reply or post (for that matter). So I hope I did this right so that it would quote you. Let me start by saying that I kindly disagree with Moses being one of the two witnesses. In the past, I also believed Moses would be one of the two witnesses but not any longer. It's more likely that Elijah could be one of the two however that's not the reason I'm replying to this thread. Elijah is more likely because Malachi 4:5

-------KJV-------
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
-----------------

Personally I believe that the two witnesses will not be known for their witnessing of Jesus Christ although they will hold the testimony of Christ. My understanding tells me that the two witnesses are witnesses of the Mighty Angel of Revelation chapter 10 (who is still speaking).

Notice what is written in Revelation 11:1

-------KJV-------
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
-----------------

Now, it tells us that "the angel stood" saying
Who stood? (Michael the Archangel / The mighty angel of Revelation 10)
When did he stand (during the last days as told in Daniel 12:1)

Keep in mind that through the 11th chapter of Revelation, the mighty angel from chapter 10 (known as Michael) is still speaking and saying:

-------KJV-------
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
-----------------

So we can clearly see that this angel "stood" and gave power to "his" two witnesses. Two witnesses are all that's needed to confirm the presence of this angel who lives upon the "earth" with one foot and upon the "sea". The earth means he lives in the flesh (like the beast out of the earth) and the sea means that his message is to be carried by his "little book" upon all the earth (peoples, nations, multitudes and tongues). His little book will contain information and I believe the "seven thunders".

Now many confuse Michael with Jesus but Jesus took not upon him the nature of angels. Angels are simply strangers you should entertain by obeying the Word of God. This angel could only be mighty and "share in the glory of Christ" if he suffered for Christ's name sake and the only way that could have happened is if he came down from heaven and lived in the flesh so that he could be persecuted for his testimony to Christ.

The two witnesses will be revealed when the water is turned to blood, and the rain stops falling, and the plagues of old return and their testimony echos throughout the whole earth. Thus the earth dwellers rejoice when the two witnesses die.

We all know Ron Weinland is not one of the two witnesses as his prophecies have failed (meaning America was not nuked this year as he said it would be). So don't drink the flavor aid about Ron Weinland (he's clearly a false prophet and doesn't have the fruit of the Spirit).

Although what many people don't understand is that the two witnesses are witnesses of the angel who probably also wounds the beast out of the sea with the sword. All of these things happening from the 10th chapter through the beginning of the 13th chapter of the book of Revelation are key to keep in mind:

-------KJV-------
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
-----------------

Notice how "the seventh angel" sounds right after the Mighty Angel of Revelation continues speaking to John and not only tells him to rise and measure the temple but that he will give power to his two witnesses?

Notice how in Revelation 12:7, that Michael and his angels make war with the Dragon? This is key to understanding why:

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ;"

This is key because Michael just blew his trumpet (and he is indeed the 7th Mighty angel) who was witnessed by two people that were on the earth at the time he was. The seventh trumpet sounds after the two witnesses are finished tormenting them that dwell upon the earth. So if they two witnesses are tormenting earth dwellers... we can accurately assume that the testimony of the MightyAngel and the "seven thunders" is against God's own house. God's judgment falls upon his own house before it falls upon the people that are not of his household of faith in Christ Jesus the King of Kings.

Watch for the seven thunders, the mighty angel and the testimony of the two witnesses in order to understand more. Some things are not always meant to be understood or "unsealed" until the appropriate time of God's own choosing.

Thanks for bringing up this topic, may the Lord bless you with meekness and discernment and understanding peace in the last days (these are the last days).

[chette777]

You know many base the Idea that one of the two witnesses is Moses because he turned water into blood. But many failed to see that the magicians of Pharaoh also turned water into blood Exodus7:22.

So turning water not blood does not make Moses one of the witnesses for if it does then any one of the Egyptian Magicians qualify if that is the criteria for being one of the witnesses. As I pointed out in a previous post, Moses is one who stands before the Lord fulfilling the requirement of both Revelation and Ezekiel