[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Jassy

Brother Tony, Thanks for the GREAT books link! I downloaded some of them to read!

I trust the LORD to guide me in what to believe and what to kindly discard from man's writings. We do the same when hearing a sermon, don't we? We aren't looking to correct... but simply to compare with Scripture for the accuracy and to know if it is something edifying for our Christian life or not.

I think these books may help me when trying to show the difference between LAW and GRACE - for those stubborn Sabbath-day keepers!!

Jassy

You are very welcome sister. There is some great reading over there. As I said though, you have to filter Stam, he came out of the Dutch Reformed Church in Holland Michican and is a petrified, stone hard absolute predestiniarian Calvinist.

Grace and peace

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by chette777

Luke,

that is part of his book Grace. I think that came from an article and only covers part of what the book says. If you read it through it shows he is not a Calvinist as some would insist.

Tbones,

Chafer and Stam are at the opposite extremes of Dispensationalism. Chafer would be a moderate whiles Stam would be a hyper

It's really hard to classify each individual person Chette, Stam held to the outmoded "Lord's supper ordinance" that I don't, so I'd consider him "moderate" compared to me. Bullinger's followers took his teachings and ran them into the ground to the point they ended up as Unitarians and Universal salvationists. It's the lunatics who cause hyperfundamentalists like Dr. Ruckman and Ironside to classify Grace believers as "heretics", plus the plain cold fear of the simple doctrine of the free grace of God.

Hyperfundamentalism allows us to glory in ourselves, in our flesh, with our water baptism and Lordly suppers(the meaning of the "Lord's supper" is every meal you eat you remember Who provided it for you and what it took for Him to provide it to you), out "tithing" and Cadillacs, three piece suits and hairballs, long dresses on our women that were considered "innaproptriate dress" in the 19th century because it was "attractive". "Confessing" sin "to God" that's already been forgiven, going "into all the world". Where can I donate for support to missionaries in Cuba, North Korea, and Iran? So we have become spiritual darwinists and "evolved" Hyperfundamentalism that let's us feel good about ourselves.

Grace will not let us glory in ourselves, it ony allows us to glory in Him. Grace robs us of all of being little Jobs, it lets us be flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone.

Grace and peace to you brother

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by greenbear

Luke (and anybody),

Would you consider yourself to be a libertarian freewiller? So far the best I can do is to stick with the truth that God's thoughts are higher than my thoughts and leave it at that while rejecting both Calvinism and Arminianism as unbiblical. I guess I have some vaguely defined idea similar to compatibilism but I guess that must be wrong if it hinges on Total Depravity, which I know is wrong.

Jennifer

Jen, I consider myself antinomian, and before arteries start to explode, the phrase simply means "no law", which is what Romans and Galatians are about. It's not a license to sin, sin is the antithesis of being created unto good works. I've known Christians who were degenerate gamblers. Hard to be an ambassador for Christ when your mind is constantly on the lottery numbers.

Arminianism, losing salvation, was Biblical in the OT. Judas Iscariot had the "signs" of an apostle, he was an apostle. It will be the same in the Tribulation, and even worse in the Millenium. I rejct Calvin's predestination, it's the Greek philosophy of Fatalism. The Stoics and Epicureans of Acts 17 were Fatalists.

Grace and peace

Tony

[chette777]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

It's really hard to classify each individual person Chette, Stam held to the outmoded "Lord's supper ordinance"

Stam also has the view that baptism is not for today based on every argument you showed on that subject in another thread. There was very little I disagreed with him in his dispensational teaching. His book of Acts study is another thing.

Originally Posted by toneynbones2112

It's the lunatics who cause hyperfundamentalists like Dr. Ruckman and Ironside to classify Grace believers as "heretics", plus the plain cold fear of the simple doctrine of the free grace of God.

Ruckman as far as I have read calls Stam a hyper heretic not because of the doctrine of free grace but because at times he changes the KJV to fit his interpretation and because of his hyper-division of the New Testament. I have never read in any of Ruckman state anything against him that mention free grace. I agree with your conclusion of Bullinger's followers.

Originally Posted by toneynbones2112

Hyperfundamentalism allows us to glory in ourselves, in our flesh, with our water baptism and Lordly suppers(the meaning of the "Lord's supper" is every meal you eat you remember Who provided it for you and what it took for Him to provide it to you), out "tithing" and Cadillacs, three piece suits and hairballs, long dresses on our women that were considered "innaproptriate dress" in the 19th century because it was "attractive". "Confessing" sin "to God" that's already been forgiven, going "into all the world". Where can I donate for support to missionaries in Cuba, North Korea, and Iran? So we have become spiritual darwinists and "evolved" Hyperfundamentalism that let's us feel good about ourselves.

Now I am not one for enforcing tithing. I teach it only as a form of giving today seeing it is to be and I quote Paul, "2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." there is no tithing there and in Mal 4 it tells us that was given only for the nation Israel. I believe tithing for Christians is only a type of giving but they are under no such law to do so.

I am grateful for those who give to missions because without their support we would starve and would have to come home. I believe God uses people who can't go into the foreign field to help those who do. this does not negate their responsibility to reach the lost where they are at. I am not the typical missionary who went by a mission board required to raise $40,000 a year support so the board could take 10% for their operational costs. I went out with only a $20 a month promise from a man who may never have kept his word. I will have to share that story some time with you, but it was lunch hours spent in a dark basement praying to God to supply for me in the Philippines.

I am casual in dress and character. MY church is casual in dress and character as well, we simply worship the Lord and simply teach his word simply to simple men who desire the Lord more in their lives. My fellowship has been stable at 40 plus or so members for almost two years. we have had a 3 young men and a women in the last year join our fellowship. the average monthly offering in our church offering box opened at the end of each month is $10 an d it goes to the church needs. I and my wife give all the rest from our own support which varies from $50 to $500 per month.

We have seen the Lord use men and women to pay for a Car for us (which I could never have bought otherwise), the Lord used these people who give to build our house which for 10 year never had a finish coat of plaster on the out side and the birds were digging into the cement hollow tiles turning our home into a giant bird house. this last 2 weeks the plastering was finished. we have no ceilings in our home when it rains you can't even hear yourself think. We are praying for the Lords supply for that. My kids go to a school that the educational program is accepted in the States in case he calls us back it cost $350 per head per year. not a lot but when you don't have it to pay and you need to make payments each month. All that because people give to our mission work. we teach grace and faith.

I want to do aquabarrelponic seminars for the poor to teach them how to raise fish and vegetables in a small area of space. all that can only be don't by people giving as I have no money myself to do so. Just so I might have the chance to talk to them about Jesus Christ, seminars are a captive audience and when you meet their needs physically free they are happy to let you tell them about free salvation in Christ Jesus.

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Grace will not let us glory in ourselves, it only allows us to glory in Him. Grace robs us of all of being little Jobs, it lets us be flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone.

As I learn to draw closer to Jesus Christ as my all in all I learn that all glory is unto him and to our God. I seek only to glorify him in all I do. though at times it may seem I come short of that goal to you and others. Gos knows my heart. that is why in my ministry is not about competing with other Missionaries to rack up souls or how big or how great a work we are doing. I don't inflate my ministry in any way. I simply share what is going on and let god have the glory.

[Luke]

Why would Ruckman sell & recommend Stam's books if he calls him a heretic?

[chette777]

You know Luke I was wondering the same thing when I read Tbones post. I concluded that TBones made a typo.

Does Ruckman endorse and sell his books? If so is he selling them for people to verify the errors or to gain better understanding in the problems that Ruckman identifies in Stam's books? or is he selling them for Stam's truthful teaching? we would have to ask Ruckman or someone at the Bookstore.

Some people do sell the material of those they critique so people can see the errors of extremism for themselves.

We will just have to wait and see if TBones can shed more light on that

[Luke]

Oh, I didn't even see Tony's post. I know it's a fact. He sells a few of Stams books. I think he has "things that are different" and "Dispensational Truth" or something. He even recommends one or two of them in his top 100 Christian books that I found somewhere on his website.

[chette777]

I have read both of those books by Stam. I agree with about 99% is it the 1% you have to be careful of.

Well then if Ruckman calls him a heretic it is only for some extreme views of the NT and his changing Gods word to fit his meaning