[Jassy]

READ FIRST: I will be posting some questions here that were brought up by an Atheist/Agnostic "Freethought Group." I don't belong to this group. Someone I know that is somewhat antagonistic towards Christians does. So, the "I" is NOT me. Perhaps people here can help in responding to these questions. I'll post them as "Questions from Atheists 1" "....2" etc.

1. Is infinite torture for finite crimes moral? I contend that this is absolutely immoral as one component of a moral punishment for a crime is that it has to be proportional. You don't give the death penalty to a kid for swearing in public. That would not be justice. Yet this is exactly the sort of thing the bible is based on - that if you don't believe in the divinity of Jesus you will be condemned to eternal torture in a lake of fire. Even Hitler's victims had an end to their misery, yet with god, there is no reprieve.

[Greektim]

Interesting issue. But what I always mention when speaking to an "atheist" is that they are using a theological argument that supposes God exists to prove their point that He doesn't exist. I also warn them that since they are delving into the relm of theology, they will recieve a theological answer whether they agree with it or not.

The theological answer would be that while their crimes against humanity may have been temporary, God's law was offended and since God is eternal and His law is eternal since it is based on His character of holiness, then the offense deserves an eternal punishment. This person is only seeing things horizontally when sin is ultimately against God (veritcal). Hitler sinned against the Jews, yes. But he sinned against God ultimately. Told ya it was theological.

[chette777]

it is not belief in the divinity of Jesus that condemns or saves a person. it is the rejection of his substitutionary death in your place for your sins. it is not his position he wants you to believe in it is the work he did so you would not be condemned.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Jassy

READ FIRST: I will be posting some questions here that were brought up by an Atheist/Agnostic "Freethought Group." I don't belong to this group. Someone I know that is somewhat antagonistic towards Christians does. So, the "I" is NOT me. Perhaps people here can help in responding to these questions. I'll post them as "Questions from Atheists 1" "....2" etc.

1. Is infinite torture for finite crimes moral? I contend that this is absolutely immoral as one component of a moral punishment for a crime is that it has to be proportional. You don't give the death penalty to a kid for swearing in public. That would not be justice. Yet this is exactly the sort of thing the bible is based on - that if you don't believe in the divinity of Jesus you will be condemned to eternal torture in a lake of fire. Even Hitler's victims had an end to their misery, yet with god, there is no reprieve.

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Ps 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Ro 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

The passage in Romans 2 above, you will really get the gist and context of those verses I give here if you read Romans 1 in it's entirety, the impact of these verses in Romans 2 really strike home.

My answer would be in the form of questions for him, I'm not an "apologist" nor do I ever allow an atheist to have the initiative in any discussion. You will never convince an atheist of the error of his ways of you own responses, the natural man won't receive the words of God, what good are our arguments in what Paul calls the "wisdom of the words of men"?

Atheists are converted only by the word of God. Paul tells us in I Thess. 2:13 that the word of God works effectually only if you believe it. You have to receive it as the word of God and believe it. The Bible is fiction to an atheist. We were all atheists at one time ourselves. No one is born Christians and God don't have any grandchildren.

What is his excuse for being an atheist?
What he is so upset about something that he says don't exist?
In order to destroy "religion" you are going to have to destroy humanity, because Romans 1 states quite clearly that man has a nature to worship a god, if he rejects the God of the Bible, then he will worship a god of his own creation, which boils down to man will worship himself.
How does what is finite stand in judgment of what is infinite?

Sister, we have something that can't be made, bought, bartered for, we have faith. Salvation is by His grace through faith and He gives us His faith. You have no hard "empiric evidence", that the atheist worships as a god, that I exist. Only words on a screen. I have no evidence that the world existed before I was born. For salvation to be by faith alone God cannot show His Face to us, we see through a glass darkly for now. I am saved because a Nazarene Sunday school teacher read me words and I believed them.

That's all you can give an atheist, His words, that's all you can give these bible correctors/rejectors. His words.

Grace and peace

Tony

[Jassy]

GREAT answers brethren!

As I simply say to atheists, since we start out with a different premise - I BELIEVE, you DON'T... there is no common ground. And then I tell them that they are FREE to choose to believe or not... HOWEVER: "What if I am right?"

I think there are some few of them that secretly fear even what they must entertain as even the most remotest possibility, that Christians may be right.

[Greektim]

Personally, I am not a fan of the what if you're wrong and I'm right argument. But that's just me