[chette777]

I heard another pastor say that OT Saints looked ahead to the cross of Jesus Christ. He also said they KNEW that someday God would send his Son to die and cover all their sins which were being covered temporarily by the bolood of Bulls and Goats. They say, that they understood the scriptures about Christ coming sacrifice for sins that was revealed to them in their time (dispensation).

I have asked them to give me OT verses that prove that they knew about Jesus Christ comeing and dying onthe cross. None have been given. the only ones they give are NT and they out of context. Like Romans 3:25 and saying past meant passover. EEK! the context is of the person at that the time of Paul who beleived (look at the verses before and after) it was for their personal past sins not God passing over the sins of OT saints.

So here is my Challenge. I need OT verses that support these preachers statements that they KNEW clearly about Christ sacrifice to come, God sending his Son. (before you jump to Isaiah you need to remeber what Peter taught - so read it below) that is they were indeed with full knowledge looking forward to the cross of Christ.

Peter tells us they did not understand the scriptures that prophecied of Christ and they longed too and that not even the angels understood by desired too. 1Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The "prophesied of the grace that should come unto you" is Israel, not church age saints (we were a mystery that peter claimed God was saving them Gentiles just as us Israel in Acts). it the prophecy was not for them in the in their dispensation but for Israel in a later dispensation. The "unto us they did minister the things which ARE NOW REPORTED unto you (Israel)" Again is Jews not church age saints. they did not understand the prophecies.

and what about Noah, was he looking forwardto the cross, or Abraham was he looking forward. where are these verses that show they did that they are quick to claim that supports their teaching. None I tell you none.

[George]

Aloha brother Chette,

I'm with you 100% on this issue.

How can anyone explain away that even His disciples "understood none of these things" and "knew not"?

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

John 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

[Luke 24:13-48]
Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Unless the Lord opens a man's eyes to understand the Holy Scriptures - the Truth will be "hid" from them, just like it was for the Lord's disciples and the Prophets of the Old Testament.

No one fully "understood" the death, burial, and resurrection, until the Lord "revealed" the "mysteries" (hidden in times past) to the Apostle Paul!

[Samuel]

Has anyone pulled this one on you yet, it seems to say that Abraham knew about Christ. And if Abraham knew, the rest of the prophets would have known also.

Joh:8:56: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

[Samuel]

And these verses also.

1Pe:1:10: Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe:1:11: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe:1:12: Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


Ok, I see you have these.


This comes pretty close.

Ho:2:23: And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

[chette777]

Sam, Good try but no candy (seeing we don't have or smoke cigars). you see the OT verses would have to clearly state that God would send his son to die on the cross so that their sacrifices which are not good enough can be perfected in the work of the son trough a propitation death and sacrificial atonement. and to the Jews a mans death and blood was not included inthe sacrifices for sin. if a mans blood was offered as a atonement it would defile the temple and the Altar under OT Despensation.

A mans blood was shed because he shed someone eles in OT Law and for a few other reasons like not obeying the sabbath, commiting adultary. but never shed for the forgiveness of sins.

I think it is safe to say we could offer a million dollars and no one could claim it becasue there are no OT verses to support such nonsense.

[chette777]

OkAny body have any OT verses that clearly teach that OT saint under law or any other dispensation KNEW about Christ coming to die on the cross for their sin?

[Luke]

There are verses that prophecy the blood atonement - Isaiah 53 for example, but there is no indication in the old testament that saints looked forward to this.

In fact, Peter, while only a simple fisherman, and probably not the most learned man regarding the existing scriptures, did not believe Christ would die. Yet he preached a gospel. How is it that one could go out two by two and preach the gospel, and yet not believe it?

The simple fact is that the gospel that Peter preached was not "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (death burial and resurrection) and thou shalt be saved". It was probably similar to Matthew 5-7, or John's message of baptism for repentance.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Luke

There are verses that prophecy the blood atonement - Isaiah 53 for example, but there is no indication in the old testament that saints looked forward to this.

Amazing, Isaiah 53 was on my mind just now also:

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The fact is that the OT saints in Isaiah's day and afterward DID have these prophecies about the Lord Jesus Christ. It might be an assumption to say that none of them were looking forward to seeing them fulfilled, maybe some were, including Isaiah himself? Of course, he never saw it come to pass in his time.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by chette777

Peter tells us they did not understand the scriptures that prophecied of Christ and they longed too and that not even the angels understood by desired too. 1Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The "prophesied of the grace that should come unto you" is Israel, not church age saints (we were a mystery that peter claimed God was saving them Gentiles just as us Israel in Acts). it the prophecy was not for them in the in their dispensation but for Israel in a later dispensation. The "unto us they did minister the things which ARE NOW REPORTED unto you (Israel)" Again is Jews not church age saints. they did not understand the prophecies.

I'm not sure you correctly represent the passage above in 1 Peter 1 when you say they did not understand the scriptures that prophesied of Christ. I'll chew on that for a while I think. Have you any other verses that compliment this thought?

[chette777]

Mt 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. the context being that of Christ to suffer

Lu 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. The Context being Knowing the son and knowing the father

1Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. The context is knwoing the things of God which no one can without the Holy Ghost and OT saints did not. this agrees with George's statement above.

These preachers make such dogmatic statement that the OT Saints were looking forward to the cross of Christ yet without any scripture to support thier teaching. they and I have heard many say they understood the scriptures revealed to them concerning God son who would come and die for their sins ina future time. Again no scripture just conjecture. this may make for nice speeches but nor for good doctrine.

The isa Scripture you quoted would fall under 1Peter1 which I quoted in the first post. and it was veiled scripture to Israel. What we need is a clear scrioture speaking of God his son and the cross that they would clearly understand. Jon Courson says they, th eOT saint, clearly knew the scriptures but failed to show which scriptures.

The Gospel Luke spoke of when sent out two by two is not the Gospel of the Grace but a kingdom Gospel only for Israel. see the context and know Christ had not gone to the cross when they preached that Gospel. we must remember their are 3 basic Gospels in the New Testament 1) the kingdom Gospel for Israel, 2) the Gospel of Grace taught by Paul. that gospel is also known by other names. 3) the eternal Gospel spoken by an angel. the first and the last of those have no blood of Christ for the remission of sins.