[atlas]

Guys,


There is never a need to hide what any man believes on any issue.

You may hate me for this, but we need to expose false doctrine no matter who teaches it.

You all need to listen to this. This way I will not be accused of that I am taking him out of context.

http://sites.google.com/site/ruckmantruth/


Peter Ruckman teaches that life starts when a baby breaths open air out side of the mothers womb. This is not found anywhere in the Bible other than in the creation of the first man Adam, and God breathed into Adam. This has nothing to do with anyone of the birth of any person in the history of the world.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Bible dose not say God breathed open air into Adam.

Now some of the folks here will not like me posting this link. I believe in the truth. I always have. if this is what Dr. Ruckman believes this why hide it. Why not post it for all to see.


Not one man on earth today or in the last 6000 years was made the 1st man Adam. Therefore Gen. 2:7 has nothing to do with when a man's life begins today. Gen. 2:7 has to do with Adam becoming a living soul. God did not make me out of dirt, he made Adam out of dirt. God did not breath into me the breath of life, no any other person alive on this earth today.

Dr. Ruckman is 100% wrong on this issue. I do not care if you like me or hate me for this post. If you are an honest man or woman you'll understand why I made this post any why I oppose Dr. Ruckman on this issue 100%.

I made this post on the topic, " When does a person become a living soul? " I am posting this again for all to read. Dr. Ruckman says a baby becomes a living soul when he gets slapped on the but takes his 1st breath. He dose not seem to acknowledge the fact that no other person other than Adam was made the way Gen. 2:7 describes Adam being made and coming to life.

1. God never formed any other person from dirt, not even Eve. She was made from Adam

2. God never breathed any one's nostrils other than Adam's.

3. We are made in Adam's fallen image.

4. All of our attributes came from Adam. Our body, soul and spirit also came from Adam. This is we must be reborn. We are born with Adam's spirit not God's spirit.

5. God did not make us literally, our mom and dad did this.

I think anyone that thinks you must breath open air to be alive is 100% incorrect. The Bible dose not teach this.

Abortion is murder 100% of the time.

I do not care what Planned Parenthood, the ACLU or Dr. Peter S. Ruckman says about this issue.


Atlas

[Luke]

I agree that abortion is murder. However, in some cases, I do think it is justified (not in the biblical sense).

If my wife was going to die because of pregnancy, and the only way for her to live would be to abort the child, then I would send my child home to heaven, to save my wife from death. It would be a hard decision to make, and to live with, but I think it would be the right thing in THAT situation, since it is life or death.

I don't think that abortion is justified in matters of rape however. It is murder, no matter when it is done.

[Luke]

I really wish you had waited until I got a hold of the entire sermon before you posted this. We don't know whether he defined abortion as something else (for example, manslaughter) and still said it was a great sin, or what. It's like, lies, and white lies, both are lies.

Murder and manslaughter. Both are murder. But we don't know what the rest of that sermon said. If it stops there, then I disagree 100%, but I don't know what he is saying.

I've heard some fundamental baptists preach like calvinists, but then go on to say man has absolute free will to choose or reject Christ. Until I get the entire sermon and hear it, I am not making any further posts regarding this. Sorry I posted the question in the first place. I was just looking for clarification from some of the people who have gone to PBI.

[atlas]

Luke,


Now Luke I count you as a friend and a brother in Christ. I had to post it because it was so bad. I had no choice. Many folks like Ruckman and need to know the truth. The truth is what matters in any issue. I stand for what is right and oppose what wrong. I do not fallow a man when he leaves the Bible I do not care who this man is.

I have defended Ruckman on every issue other than this and UFO's. UFO's are not a big issue, this is. You can see my many post here where I defend Dr. Ruckman and you know this is true, however Ruckman is not my leader. The Lord is my Leader, NOT ANY MAN. I will not defend any man when he is wrong, I do not care who the man is. Right is right and wrong is wrong. The man is not the issue. The issue is right and wrong. Abortion is wrong If you do not like that, well to bad for you. If Ruckman was here I'd tell him the same thing. Like it or not, sin is sin and wrong is wrong. So if you are mad at me for posting this there is nothing I can do about it my friend. Let every man learn the truth. The truth will always hurt someone., but the truth is what we all need.

I hope this post dose not offend you, however I will post the truth. You can take it as you will my friend.

I really wish you had waited until I got a hold of the entire sermon before you posted this.

Why do you need to hear the rest of it. Are you afraid of the truth.? I'm not. Here are the word for word quotes. What else needs to said. He is very plain on what he believes and why.

He takes Gen. 2:7 and tries to apply it to every man or woman ever born. This is so far out of context it's beyond crazy.

NOT ONE PERSON WAS EVER BORN THE WAY ADAM WAS MADE. THEREFORE YOU CAN NOT APPLY Gen. 2:7 TO ANY MAN OTHER THAN ADAM.

You can not apply Gen 2:7 to any man other than Adam. This is crazy, he is so far off base on this he is not even in the ball park. He is wrongly dividing the word of God on this issue.

How can any man apply gen 2:7 to a child born today.

God did not make the kids today out of dust did he? Did God breath life into a child born today? No he did not. This is one of the worst cases of WRONGLY DEVIDING Word of God I have ever seen. This is on the scale of any apostate Bible corrector. This is beyond bad and needs to be exposed for what it is. FALSE DOCTRIUNE & WRONGLY DIVIDING GOD'S WORD.

On the MP3 file at 29 seconds he says,

I teach ta baby is not a living soul until it breaths

MP3 file 42 seconds

and so I don't teach that abortion is murder like the brethren do

It starts back again on the MP3 file at 2:54

abortion is murder, abortion is murder they show you pitchers. What are they trying to prove? They are trying to prove that the thing looks like a person it is a person. That is what Darwin taught. You've got to watch that business.

Why are you afraid of the truth? I do not fear the truth. Why not stand up and oppose this for what it is? Why not expose it for what it is?

Here is the truth, RUCKMAN IS 100% WRONG!!!

As an example, if Benny Henn said this you'd be over him. If some other preacher said it you'd do the same. If Ruckman says it, oh well maybe I should not have posted it. Why not wrong is wrong no matter who says it. He is 100% wrong, he is out of line and wrongly dividing God's Word. If you can not see this you are brainwashed.


This wrong I do not care who says it. No person can rightly divide the Word of God and apply how Adam was made to how we are made.

Listen to it all, this is beyond sick. This is the worst case I have ever seen in my life. This is so bad it is on the scale of any Bible corrector you can name. This is how bad it is.



Atlas

[Gord]

Originally Posted by Luke

I really wish you had waited until I got a hold of the entire sermon before you posted this. We don't know whether he defined abortion as something else (for example, manslaughter) and still said it was a great sin, or what. It's like, lies, and white lies, both are lies.

Murder and manslaughter. Both are murder. But we don't know what the rest of that sermon said. If it stops there, then I disagree 100%, but I don't know what he is saying.

I've heard some fundamental baptists preach like calvinists, but then go on to say man has absolute free will to choose or reject Christ. Until I get the entire sermon and hear it, I am not making any further posts regarding this. Sorry I posted the question in the first place. I was just looking for clarification from some of the people who have gone to PBI.

I too would like to hear it all as well. It sounds like the story was picked up 1/2 way in to give us the 1/2 story.

[Biblestudent]

(I just made a comment in another thread before I saw this one.)

Originally Posted by atlas

He is very plain on what he believes and why.

That's why Ruckman is still one of my most FAVORITE preachers!

Originally Posted by atlas

He takes Gen. 2:7 and tries to apply it to every man or woman ever born. This is so far out of context it's beyond crazy.

NOT ONE PERSON WAS EVER BORN THE WAY ADAM WAS MADE. THEREFORE YOU CAN NOT APPLY Gen. 2:7 TO ANY MAN OTHER THAN ADAM.

You can not apply Gen 2:7 to any man other than Adam. This is crazy, he is so far off base on this he is not even in the ball park. He is wrongly dividing the word of God on this issue.

Good point, there Bro. Atlas!

I have always been a fan of Dr. Ruckman, just like I'm a fan of Polycarp, Martin Luther, Billy Sunday, John R. Rice, Jack Hyles, etc. etc. That doesn't guarantee, however, that all of them rightly divides the word of truth all of the time.

One thing that I admire Ruckman is that he's always been Ruckman - he would never compromise truth for fear of "the brethren". Now, again, he may be wrong in many issues and I've not always agreed with him, but (as Atlas says) he is "VERY PLAIN ON WHAT HE BELIEVES AND WHY".

I think the KEY here is RIGHT DIVISION.

[drbible1611]

I will post my thoughts on this thread instead of the other one I started because it was Dr Ruckman's position on abortion that pricked my interest.

1. IS ABORTION MURDER?

If abortion is indeed murder because a person becomes a LIVING SOUL at CONCEPTION then may I suggest that any woman that uses contraception, other than a barrier method, is a MURDERER.

Oral contraceptives do not simply prevent the release of an egg from the ovary but also alter the lining of the womb so that implantation of the embryo CANNOT occur and the embryo 'dies'.

Likewise an Intrauterine Device (IUD) prevents implantation of an embryo.

So I don't believe that a person becomes a LIVING SOUL at conception. At conception there is POTENTIAL LIFE-all of the 'ingredients' for the want of a better word are not present-YET!

Psalms chapter 139
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Firstly, this portion of Scripture more than likely refers to the creation of Adam because he was made directly from the earth, however, there is an application to us. Our flesh has the same composition as the earth-carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, the various elements etc.

Secondly, notice that God saw our...SUBSTANCE, yet being UNPERFECT and that we were already conceived in the mind of God and our MEMBERS were written in a book, however...as yet THERE WAS NONE OF THEM.

So this passage would suggest to me that there is a time frame within the womb that a person is NOT a LIVING SOUL, but the potential for life is certainly there.

to be cont.

[drbible1611]

Can we support the previous supposition by Scripture, I believe we can:

Job chapter 3

11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

Job already had the ghost he was a LIVING SOUL. Therefore some babies come out of the womb and die already having the ghost in them.

Job chapter 10

18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!

So you can have a babies in the womb who are not yet born and are LIVING SOULS.

However, it can also be the other way.

Job chapter 3

16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.

Job chapter 10

19 I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.

Some babies NEVER become LIVING SOULS. Sometime during gestation you go from being a baby that doesn't have a soul to a living soul.

The question is when does this happen?

to be cont.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by drbible1611

I will post my thoughts on this thread instead of the other one I started because it was Dr Ruckman's position on abortion that pricked my interest.

1. IS ABORTION MURDER?

If abortion is indeed murder because a person becomes a LIVING SOUL at CONCEPTION then may I suggest that any woman that uses contraception, other than a barrier method, is a MURDERER.

Oral contraceptives do not simply prevent the release of an egg from the ovary but also alter the lining of the womb so that implantation of the embryo CANNOT occur and the embryo 'dies'.

Likewise an Intrauterine Device (IUD) prevents implantation of an embryo.

So I don't believe that a person becomes a LIVING SOUL at conception. At conception there is POTENTIAL LIFE-all of the 'ingredients' for the want of a better word are not present-YET!

Wow -- look at your steps of reasoning up there. You are saying you don't believe there is the living soul at conception because ("so...") someone might have to re-examine their use of certain types of birth control!?

In fact I totally agree -- people shouldn't use methods of birth control that can cause abortions! I'm not going to redefine an unborn child as an unborn "whatever" just because it might inconvenience someone!

You find me one instance of the word "conception" or "conceive" (any word form) in the Bible that indicates that the life is anything other than a person, and we'll have something to debate.

Look at this:

Genesis 21:2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.

The conception was a fulfillment of God's promise! (If not, why mention it?) They didn't wait around to see if the "ingredients" would become a fully-baked boy to see if God fulfilled his promise to Abraham! Can you just imagine Sarah and Abraham waiting around to see if her pregnancy would be successful before rejoicing in the coming of their new child?

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by atlas

Peter Ruckman teaches that life starts when a baby breaths open air out side of the mothers womb.

Now we've got two threads on the same topic.

My post here deals with Ruckman's view.