[Brother Tim]

Doxa asked in another thread, "What do Baptists believe about the end times?"
I thought it might be entertaining to answer that broad question.

I'll start with a different twist:
I am neither pre-, mid-, or post-trib. I am best described as being "non-70th week trib", that is, I don't see a 7-year trib, but instead, a continued increase in persecution of the saints until the return of Christ. As far as the Millennium goes, I'm for it!

Hey Doxa,

I would say that most Baptists probably take some kind of dispensational approach to the Bible and the end times.

I, myself, lean toward a pre-trib, mid-week position.

[George]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Doxa asked in another thread, "What do Baptists believe about the end times?"
I thought it might be entertaining to answer that broad question.

I'll start with a different twist:
I am neither pre-, mid-, or post-trib. I am best described as being "non-70th week trib", that is, I don't see a 7-year trib, but instead, a continued increase in persecution of the saints until the return of Christ. As far as the Millennium goes, I'm for it!

Aloha brother Tim,

I'm curious, if the church (New Testament churches) is to go through the Tribulation - why is the Tribulation specifically called: "the time of Jacob's trouble"?

Jeremiah 30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity ; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished. that I have spoken unto thee in a book.

Where is the New Testament church in all of this? What have Christians to do with: "the captivity of my people Israel and Judah"?"; "thy bonds"; "David their King"; the "return to the land that I gave to their fathers,"; "my servant Jacob"; "thy seed from the land of their captivity"; "Jacob shall return"; "though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee". {?}

Jeremiah 30:7 clearly states There a GREAT DAY is coming; that there is NONE LIKE IT; and that "time" is called: "JACOB'S TROUBLE". And God has promised that "he (JACOB) shall be saved out of it! Where does that leave the church (churches)?

If today's churches (New Testament churches) go through the Tribulation then they are in BIG TROUBLE! Where is the promise that the Lord is going to save them (the churches) out of that "great day"?

The purpose of the Tribulation is to bring the NATION of Israel back into the land and to prepare them for their coming King (the Lord Jesus Christ). And if it weren't for God's intervention, Israel (and Judah) would be made a "full end of", but God has promised: "For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished." [Jeremiah 30:11].

During the Tribulation God is going to correct the NATION of Israel "in measure" and He is not going to leave them (the NATION of Israel) "altogether unpunished".

Some of us Christians are so enamored of "our" churches, that we cannot imagine that God has any other plan than to perpetuate "our" church "doctrine" throughout eternity.

God is going to "make an end" of ALL NATIONS! The bride of Christ will live forever with our Saviour and Lord, but God is going to end the church age. But: ". . . . . of his kingdom there shall be no end." [Luke 1:33]

2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
1 Chronicles 22:10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
Psalms 145:12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Christ's coming "Kingdom" is peculiarly Jewish and before He returns to set up His "Kingdom", He will first have to prepare His earthly people (the Jews) for His "Kingdom" (which is the primary purpose of the Tribulation).

God is nearly done with His church on this earth. The Laodicean church is the most covetous church of the 7 churches listed in the first three chapters of Revelation. Remember - Covetousness = IDOLATRY! [Colossians 3:5].

God has proven (by the church age) to all of mankind that - even though He has given us His Holy, infallible word; even though He has regenerated us; even though He has made His abode in us; even though He has given us the mind of Christ; even though He has given us the gift of the Holy Spirit (to guide us); and even though He has blessed us beyond measure, we still (after all of the above and much more) have turned our backs on God and "we have turned every one to his own way".

Today: Where are the churches that have a "love of the truth"? Where are the churches that are truly honoring the Lord Jesus Christ as their Head (and not the pastor)? Where are the churches that are honoring God's Holy words, and who are endeavoring to truly have the Bible as their SOLE Authority in all matters of faith and practice? Where are the churches that practice Christian charity (genuine love of the brethren). Where are the churches that welcome (with open arms) those of us who want to follow and obey God's word (not "the traditions of men")? Hmmm?

Throughout the U.S.A. trying to find a church (today) that is even attempting to emulate the New Testament churches of Paul's day, is like trying to find the proverbial "needle in a haystack"! What is going on? (Laodicea) If you want to see how a true New Testament church functions and operates I'm afraid you'll have to go to India, the Philippines, South Korea, and other parts of Asia. You'll have to go to Africa and South America to see churches that at least resemble the New Testament churches of Paul's day.

You see - We (in most of the Western world and especially in the U.S.A.) are neither "hot" nor "cold" (we're "lukewarm"); we are - "rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing"; and we are so blind that we don't even know that we "art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:"

The churches of today are casting out true Bible believers (we're "divisive", "trouble makers", "mavericks", "rebels", etc.). But we are not the only ones that are "outside of the door".

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

It's hard to imagine how fast God's people have departed from God's words in the 50 years that I have been a Christian. If I hadn't seen it with my own I eyes, I doubt that I would have believed it possible.

I, for one, am not looking forward to going through the Tribulation (although I should). I am looking for the soon return of my Lord and Saviour (for His Bride); I am looking forward to being "translated" (just like Enoch of old); I am looking forward to: "this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."; I'm waiting for: "his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

The Lord Jesus Christ is going to deliver me "from the wrath to come" - not that I deserve it, but because the Tribulation is NOT for Christians or the New Testament churches - it is the time of Jacob's trouble; but he (Jacob) shall be saved out of it.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha brother Tim.

Today: Where are the churches that have a "love of the truth"? [/FONT][/FONT]Where are the churches that are truly honoring the Lord Jesus Christ as their Head (and not the pastor)? Where are the churches that are honoring God's Holy words, and who are endeavoring to truly have the Bible as their SOLE Authority in all matters of faith and practice?[FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana] Where are the churches that practice Christian charity (genuine love of the brethren). Where are the churches that welcome (with open arms) those of us who want to follow and obey God's word (not "the traditions of men")? Hmmm?

I, for one, am not looking forward to going through the Tribulation (although I should). I am looking for the soon return of my Lord and Saviour (for His Bride); I am looking forward to being "translated" (just like Enoch of old); I am looking forward to: "this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."; I'm waiting for: "his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

Amen!

"A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;" (Ecclesiastes 3:4).

[peopleoftheway]

1 Thessalonians 4:13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

2 Corinthians 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The Great Tribulation is always going to be about Gods Chosen people, Israel.

Great Post Brother George, I always have to go make a coffee and prepare myself to read your posts

God Bless

Yes, EXCELLENT post, bro. George!

The question I have been trying to work through is not the pre-trib question. There is not a doubt in my mind that the body of Christ is not appointed to wrath.

The question for me is the LENGTH of the tribulation. There is much in Scripture to indicate that the tribulation begins in the MIDST of Daniel's last week.

Where in Scripture is the tribulation period EVER referred to as seven years?

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."
Dan 12:11

"Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."
Dan 12:12


But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:2

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."
Rev 13:5

"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
Rev 11:3

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."
Rev 12:6


The CLOSEST any verse about the trib comes to seven years is Dan 8:13,14-

Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Notice that it is qualified by the word "unto."

[Brother Tim]

Guys, Guys !!!

You are going to make Doxa run screaming for the exit.

Don't use this thread to try convince anyone of your doctrine, just briefly explain what you believe. There are plenty of threads here where we can debate the issues, but the topic of this thread is an attempt to answer Doxa's question, or at least show my statement that there is no singular belief. (as if!)

I know that I am in the tiny minority here, but as I have indicated in many places, it is not on the top of my list of battles to fight. I'll say it again for convenience sake. I am living for the LORD, seeking to be prepared to face tribulation (persecution) if it comes, and fully being happy to escape it if that is God's plan.

[peopleoftheway]

The Great Tribulation time itself is clearly announced to continue 3 1/2 years, 42 months, 1,260 days. (Dan. 7:25; Rev. 11:2, 3; Rev.12:14.)

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 11:2
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Revelation 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

There is no sign of Christs coming before the translation. The Sign's are for Israel during The Great Tribulation.

Thanks for the post, POTW.

If what we are saying is the case, then it is a good possibility that the bride of Christ could be here for the first part of Daniel's last week.

It could be a transition period from the church to the Jew, just as the book of Acts was a transition period from the Jew to the church.

[peopleoftheway]

No, not the "Church" during the first 3 1/2 years, The Church will be gone homeward bound for the marriage supper of the Lamb. The saints that are spoken of in Daniel 7:25 are tribulation saints. The remnant of Israel that will turn to the LORD accept Christ and be his witnesses and be slain by the antichrist. They will be raised up at the end of tribulation.

After the first phase of Christ's second coming, the rapture, the second phase must come within a specified time. And just before Jesus returns to the earth with saints and angels to fight the Battle of Armageddon and set up His kingdom, the sign of His coming will appear in the heavens