[Luke]

Despite sister Tracy's claims to be a Bible Believer, here she goes and completely turns God's grace into something it isn't

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/walkaway.htm (apparently you can lose your salvation according to her).

Also, here is another heretical page

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/lordship.htm

In it she says that you can't be saved without complete surrender to Jesus Christ. On the site, she gives a definition of antinomian

ANTINO'MIAN, n. One of a sect who maintain, that, under the gospel dispensation, the law is of no use or obligation; or who hold doctrines which supersede the necessity of good works and a virtuous life. This sect originated with John Agricola about the year 1538.

While that is a right definition, Bible Believers and Non-Lordship People (Charles Ryrie, Charles Stanley for example) do not fall into that category. No free grace advocate I know of will exclude good moral behaviour from the christian life. Nor will they exclude the law from salvation, because the Law LEADS us to Christ (it is a schoolmaster!). What they will claim, and is true, is that good works and morals do not contribute to salvation, or even prove salvation.

The Lordship Salvation groups takes the opposite stand, and if you read that article, you will see that Tracy teaches none other than a works based gospel, and this is evident in her outstanding support for Charles G Finney, on her other website "oldlandmarks.com"

Sister Tracy accuses Bible Believers of believing something that they do not. Be warned about Jesus-is-lord.com

Jesus-is-savior.com is a much better site, but not without it's own pecularities.

God bless
Luke

[Paladin54]

Yes, Luke,
It was jesus-is-lord.com that made me a AV defender, and while she has some great articles and some amazing links...she is very wrong in several places. Her article "Can a Man Walk away from Jesus?" is a perfect example. When i was curious about the Calvinism debate, I curiously posted that article on this site, which brother Atlas simply destroyed, along with several others here. Since Tracy had been right so many times before, I was inclined to believe her, but she was plain wrong here.


I'm impressed, Brother Luke, by your zeal to defeat those of the Lordship Salvation movement, and you have a good reason to do so that I do not think others can possess. Well done.

[stephanos]

The Scriptures speak for themselves concerning Jesus Christ as both Lord and Saviour. I don't need to waste my time (again) on this subject. The Scriptures will defend themselves.

Concerning loosing ones salvation, no one, I repeat no one has been able to completely prove to me that it is impossible to loose ones salvation. I've heard all the calvinist rhetoric before and it doesn't hold up in light of ALL the Scriptures.

To be honest I'm not sure why you antinomians want to pervert the Gospel of Peace into a gospel of freedom to sin without consequence. I assure you that this was NEVER the gospel Paul taught...

Concerning the link to the JIL page. I'm not quite sure why there is confusion and turning away from it. 90% of it is Scripture. Does Scripture not speak for itself?

Luke, can you at least answer this question?. Can a Christian's name be removed from the Book of Life? Think carefully how you answer this question. What you say could take away from what is written in Revelation. I didn't want to lead you into this, but you've left me no choice.

Righteousness MUST stand!

btw - Jesus-is-Saviour is so Calvinist it is almost rediculous. Not only is it blatant Calvinism, it's also a blatant rip off of JIL, and I... I don't have the time to get into this. I could spend all night talking about JIS, but I won't. Some people need another go through in their Bibles...

a fool for the Lord Jesus Christ,
Stephen

[chette777]

Stephanos please be graceful in your statements. it is not just Calvenist who believe in eternal salvation. that doctrine is very well established in scriputre as well. I am not a Calvinist, nor a hyper-dispensationalist. please don't assume you are talking to them here. there are some but most of us are not.

Remember Jesus is said the be the author of eternal salvation. that scripture alone holds a lot of wieght. Hebrews 5:9

None of us beleive we have a lisence to sin because we are eternally saved. Grace gives us the power to say no to sin, not live in sin. And I assure you this, you are by no means sinless yourself. So what sin will it take to lose your salvation?

A saved individual may sin and not lose his salvation (you look to yourself as internal evidence for this). that is what 1 John 1:9 is for. if a person says they are saved continue to sin and be in wickedness and bitternes like Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8, i would have to say they are not saved. Simon believed and was baptized but he never received the Holy Ghost. he tried to buy the free gift.

the Holy Ghost is given freely in every dispensation. In the past it was always removed when God was finished using those whom he had given it, and it was only for a purpose of service to God. Only in ours is The Holy Ghost to live the Christ like life in us because it is impossible for us to do. in the Millennial the Holy Ghost is given to put the Laws on their hearts (Israel only) so they can keep the law and ordinances to serve God. He does not help them keep the law. we are an unique creation in Christ called the New Creation, the New Man and we are eternaly saved by the one who saved us.

ask the question why did they have to lay hands on the people in Samaria to receive the Holy Ghost? (if you find the answer you will be surprised because it has nothing to do with receiveing the Holy Ghost at all.) Paul needed it too in Acts 9 and other than John the Baptist's 12 disciples Paul never laid hands on any one to receive the Holy Ghost. When one has the Holy Ghost one is saved and it can't be removed because in this dispensation it is the sign or earnest of your redemption of the purchased possesion.

We been through this before, but the removal of the name in the lambs book of life in Revelation is for another dispensation or division of Time, the Great Tribulation (dividing the Word of truth iliminates any confusion as to eternal salvation). In the Great Tribulation there is no salvation by grace through faith alone. that method of salvation is removed with Christ's body, and reverts back to one of Law of Israel. So their salvation is not just faith they must add works with their faith. and if they do bad works they can have their names removed. so it is not talking about a Christian in Revelation it is speaking of a person who will be a subject in a kingdom. they are not part of the Body of Christ, that is finished before the Great Tribulation.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by chette777

Stephanos please be graceful in your statements. it is not just Calvenist who believe in eternal salvation. that doctrine is very well established in scriputre as well. I am not a Calvinist, nor a hyper-dispensationalist. please don't assume you are talking to them here. there are some but most of us are not.

Remember Jesus is said the be the author of eternal salvation. that scripture alone holds a lot of wieght. Hebrews 5:9

None of us beleive we have a lisence to sin because we are eternally saved. Grace gives us the power to say no to sin, not live in sin. And I assure you this, you are by no means sinless yourself. So what sin will it take to lose your salvation?

A saved individual may sin and not lose his salvation (you look to yourself as internal evidence for this). that is what 1 John 1:9 is for. if a person says they are saved continue to sin and be in wickedness and bitternes like Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8, i would have to say they are not saved. Simon believed and was baptized but he never received the Holy Ghost. he tried to buy the free gift.

the Holy Ghost is given freely in every dispensation. In the past it was always removed when God was finished using those whom he had given it, and it was only for a purpose of service to God. Only in ours is The Holy Ghost to live the Christ like life in us because it is impossible for us to do. in the Millennial the Holy Ghost is given to put the Laws on their hearts (Israel only) so they can keep the law and ordinances to serve God. He does not help them keep the law. we are an unique creation in Christ called the New Creation, the New Man and we are eternaly saved by the one who saved us.

ask the question why did they have to lay hands on the people in Samaria to receive the Holy Ghost? (if you find the answer you will be surprised because it has nothing to do with receiveing the Holy Ghost at all.) Paul needed it too in Acts 9 and other than John the Baptist's 12 disciples Paul never laid hands on any one to receive the Holy Ghost. When one has the Holy Ghost one is saved and it can't be removed because in this dispensation it is the sign or earnest of your redemption of the purchased possesion.

We been through this before, but the removal of the name in the lambs book of life in Revelation is for another dispensation or division of Time, the Great Tribulation (dividing the Word of truth iliminates any confusion as to eternal salvation). In the Great Tribulation there is no salvation by grace through faith alone. that method of salvation is removed with Christ's body, and reverts back to one of Law of Israel. So their salvation is not just faith they must add works with their faith. and if they do bad works they can have their names removed. so it is not talking about a Christian in Revelation it is speaking of a person who will be a subject in a kingdom. they are not part of the Body of Christ, that is finished before the Great Tribulation.

I don't believe as you do about Salvation changing in your so called dispensations, as we've been through before. Concerning loosing ones salvation, I still think it is possible for one to excersice their free will and choose not to make Christ Jesus their Lord and Saviour. I know some may say that they never had salvation, and therefore could not loose it. I can't speak against that myself, only God can say with all certainty if someone was His or wasn't. What I can say is that I know people that in no uncertain terms was a Christian in faith, and practice, and now denies Jesus Christ and all notions of a creator and doesn't want to have any part in our blessed hope. It is my belief that this person failed the one condition upon which our salvation rests: faith on Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:38-39 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2 Peter 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

I think sometimes I'm not getting through with what I believe. I do believe that it is by faith on Jesus Christ ALONE that saves us, but where I part from most of you is that I believe that we are called to good works in Christ Jesus, and that this IS a sign of belonging to Him.

Titus 2:11-15 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Concerning laying on of hands, please explain your take on this further. I've never heard anyone expound upon this before and you've stoked my curiousity.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

[chette777]

Well I haved tried to help you make sense of the Bible you love so much. but you are unwilling to to do. that is why you beleive that someone could lose salvation. Your friend whom you say has stopped being a Christian if he was truly saved he can't unsave himself. he is still saved. if you hold all the scriptures up as you do it will contradict unless you can rightly divide. and put things in order. a good book to read to help on this matter though I don't agree with all their teaching is from some Baptist guy by the name of Stoufer it is entitled "One Book Rightly Divided"

My friend we believe that we are called to good works in Christ Jesus. I never said otherwise. We are called to walk in good works that God has purposed for us to walk in. just that not all believers do that. your friend what caused him to turn his back on Christ?

there are different times in the Bible I don't understand why you don't see them when the Bible clearly teaches them. Are you in the Tribulation now or is it to come? are you in the Millennial Kingdom now or is it to come? those are dispensations or differnt times periods when God deals differently with men. pre flood and post flood are two differnt dispensations. you will notice the different dietary laws given in each one. there are scriputres for each of the periods past and future. all of which are for our learning.

the laying on of hands to the Samaritans has to do with authroity and submission to Jerusalem. Read the history of the Samritans, their origins, their rebellion to Jerusalem, and the setting up of their own temple against Gods clear word not to. Seek the Holy Ghost to teach you and you will have illumination. it is a wonderful experience.

Here is somethings that will help and I know you practice some of them but not all of them, I can tell by your posts. I try to follow these simple rules when studying the Bible. 1) Never add or subtract words to or from the text. 2) Never go to any scholarship where the Bible has already defined the words or terms. 3) Always notice the context. 4) Never begin with obscure verses; always interpret a “cloudy” passage with a clear passage. 5) Always interpret an incomplete statement in the Bible with a complete statement. 6) Always ask who is talking and to whom he is speaking. 7) Always take the plain, literal meaning if possible; if it is impossible, then take the passage figuratively—but only if it’s impossible. 8) In the Bible there are three distinct types of applications: a historical application, a doctrinal application, and a devotional application. 9) rightly divide the word of truth useing the previous 8 rules.

[Diligent]

God has given me the faith of Christ. I only had to believe; now I have Christ's faith. It would be impossible for me to "willingly walk away" from Christ since God gave me the faith of Christ! He is always faithful! Christ's faith works for me. What works of mine would matter?

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

It helps a lot to be able to rightly divide your Bible -- since there are indeed verses that say someone can lose their salvation. But even without understanding the division, no one today should think that the Faith of Christ could be inadequate once given to them. (The people who can "lose it" aren't given the faith of Christ; they have to live by their own faith.)

[chette777]

very good explanation Brandon.
I would have to agree it is Christ's Faith being worked out in our lives and keeps us safe in him.

[Brother Tim]

Brandon, to add to your powerful statement:

It would be impossible for me to "willingly walk away" from Christ since God gave me the faith of Christ! He is always faithful! Christ's faith works for me.

is the proof from the Scriptures:

If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (II Timothy 2:13)

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Brandon, to add to your powerful statement:

is the proof from the Scriptures:

Greetings Brother,

My only concern with your post is that you quote only part of 2 Timothy. You leave out a very important statement by Paul in the previous verse.

2 Tim. 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Here is a question for you. This statement is written to Timothy concerning believers. How can believers "believe not"? Isn't that impossible according to the doctrine of predestination?

Peace