[Luke]

I posted a similar question on Cody's forum a bit back, but this isn't the same thing..

It's no secret I am not satisfied with my church. It's not the teaching really, it's just the lack of motivation. The pastor seems to justify his lack of soulwinning by claiming he is shy and that's how God made him. Fair enough. I ain't denying he is shy, and God made him, but surely, if God called him to the ministry, the pastor needs to go to God to help him overcome any hindrances to that.

The lack of motivation rubs off onto everyone else. I know I am just as guilty of not sharing the gospel as the pastor is.

However, my mother and father in law have left recently. Same reason as me.

My father in law has approached the pastor several times, with ideas for community outreach. Now my father in law isn't exactly a "King James Bible Believer" but he is a good godly man. He is a better man than me, that's for sure. But everytime he takes something to the pastor, the pastor says "I'll pray about it" and NEVER gets back to anyone about it. And I've done the same thing too.

My wife actually wrote up an entire list of all these dormitories (we live in a university town) to give to the pastor to contact with church times, and he didn't contact one. So I am ranting again.. you get the point...

And now my father in law has gone to another church in town we live in. One we would refer to as liberal. Women deacon's, rock music etc. I don't know.. I've never been there. But the thing is, they ARE sharing the gospel. I don't know how. Lifestyle evangelism to some extent, but they are. And every night I have to hear the report from my wife about how wonderful this church is and to be honest, I am tempted to go for the fellowship. They run about 500 in a town of 9000. The church I attend runs 20 in a city of 200,000

SOMETHING AIN'T RIGHT! I know it's not about numbers, and I wouldn't even be concerned if there was some outreach happening.

I am just very discouraged and don't know what to do, and I hate to say this, because I know I sound like I am complaining.

Before anyone suggests I just go out and do soulwinning myself.. how do you do that without the support of the pastor? And what church do I take them to? My church... where they will sit under the preaching of a man who doesn't actively share the gospel? I'm just so confused..

What do I do in this situation?

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Luke

I posted a similar question on Cody's forum a bit back, but this isn't the same thing..

It's no secret I am not satisfied with my church. It's not the teaching really, it's just the lack of motivation. The pastor seems to justify his lack of soulwinning by claiming he is shy and that's how God made him. Fair enough. I ain't denying he is shy, and God made him, but surely, if God called him to the ministry, the pastor needs to go to God to help him overcome any hindrances to that.

The lack of motivation rubs off onto everyone else. I know I am just as guilty of not sharing the gospel as the pastor is.

However, my mother and father in law have left recently. Same reason as me.

My father in law has approached the pastor several times, with ideas for community outreach. Now my father in law isn't exactly a "King James Bible Believer" but he is a good godly man. He is a better man than me, that's for sure. But everytime he takes something to the pastor, the pastor says "I'll pray about it" and NEVER gets back to anyone about it. And I've done the same thing too.

My wife actually wrote up an entire list of all these dormitories (we live in a university town) to give to the pastor to contact with church times, and he didn't contact one. So I am ranting again.. you get the point...

And now my father in law has gone to another church in town we live in. One we would refer to as liberal. Women deacon's, rock music etc. I don't know.. I've never been there. But the thing is, they ARE sharing the gospel. I don't know how. Lifestyle evangelism to some extent, but they are. And every night I have to hear the report from my wife about how wonderful this church is and to be honest, I am tempted to go for the fellowship. They run about 500 in a town of 9000. The church I attend runs 20 in a city of 200,000

SOMETHING AIN'T RIGHT! I know it's not about numbers, and I wouldn't even be concerned if there was some outreach happening.

I am just very discouraged and don't know what to do, and I hate to say this, because I know I sound like I am complaining.

Before anyone suggests I just go out and do soulwinning myself.. how do you do that without the support of the pastor? And what church do I take them to? My church... where they will sit under the preaching of a man who doesn't actively share the gospel? I'm just so confused..

What do I do in this situation?

Brother, you take the lost souls to the Lord Jesus Christ FIRST and forget about a "church". You get them in the Lord FIRST, and let the lack of church problem sort itself out down the road. We hit the street ministry with our own support here. We are not out to build a church, we are out to get people into Christ. If someone gets saved under your work, and they say, where is your church? Show them the street, the neighborhood, this is my church, meet me here next week, let's subvert the hearing of the lost and make every thought captive for Christ. Have you ever thought of starting your own church? You don't feel called to pastor? Get a group of Christians together and elect one that is called.

The first church I was founding member of the pastor withdrew church support of the street ministry and I left that night and never went back because his real motive was he didn't want "those people" in his church, sinners. I don't recall myself, him, the rest of the members of this church being products of a Virgin Birth so I saw no problem in having lost sinners come to Christ as members. That's the problem even in Christian fundamentalism, our feces have no odoriferous manifestations and we forget we were lost as a flock of drunken geese ourselves once.

A liberal church is winning souls to Christ? Can Satan cast out Satan? Are they preaching the gospel pf Christ crucified or are they an entertainment center bribing people in just as members of a church, a building, a location?

Your pastor is a coward and ashamed of the gospel of Christ. You all pool your resources and get me a ticket to New Zealand, fourth class on a merchant ship works for me, and I'll tell him to his face. You don't need to change churches, you need to change the one you are in. The pastor is "shy"? Luke, I have moderate to mild agoraphobia except in the street ministry. He has no excuse. Get me to New Zealand, let me take him onto the street and set him on fire for preaching the gospel. Has he ever heard of Arthur Blessit? 36,000 miles on foot lugging a cross behind him? Is Arthur a fool? Out for fame and fortune? I certainly don't see any Arthur Blessit action figures and if he was ever on Ellen Degenerate's talk show I missed that episode.

What is a man who is "shy" doing pastoring a church and refusing to preach the gospel of Christ? That's the whole purpose of a church's existence is to preach the gospel of Christ. He shepherds a flock, he should be door to door, in the marketplace, and on the street in the front lines. He is supposed to be a leader, and example. A pastor who is not preaching the gospel of Christ to lost people is not fit to pastor a church.

Lu 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Christ: "My Father is in me, reconciling the lost world unto my Father through me. Go forth and be my ambassador..."
Shy Pastor: "Yes Lord, but see, I am shy, it is a medical condition, I am afraid of what people think of me, what I do, what I look like, what they will say and do about what I say and do, I don't want to anger the government..."
Christ: "Then get ye down into the audience and let someone fit to lead a church feed my sheep and seek that which is lost."

Do you know why you are struggling with your flesh right now Luke? Because someday you will lead and pastor a church for Him. You can't see it in the future, God and I do. I see the struggle in you, but I see the leadership in you, I see the fervent and zealous passion for Him in you. You don't right now, I do. You're too close to the trees to see the forest brother. You are blind to the high calling because of this struggle in the flesh, as Paul was blinded on the road to Damascus and forced to reflect on who he was and what he was doing. When your 40 days in the wilderness are ended, you will be lean and mean after the scales of this struggle have fallen.

You don;t need to change churches, the one you are in needs to be changed, what can you do?

Grace and peace and my prayers Luke

Tony

[Fredoheaven]

Hi Luke! Good day!!!

I am just as shy like you before in the terms of soulwinning. I struggled to share my faith with others and become numb and dumb if somebody wanted to talk about faith and Christ. Until a friend and a brother who was trained in a local Bible school in Metro Manila Phils. Not to mention, this local bible baptist church which happened to be our mother church is a sold out in soulwinning. They are averaging an attendance of 2,000+, averaging 200+ first time visitors excluding children. They are one of the fastest bible believing baptist church here in the Philippines. Ok, what he told me are the following and you can do the same:

1. Pray. You cannot do it by yourself. Truly this is a work of the Holy Spirit. Paul said " I can do all things through Christ". Prayer is the very important factor to face your fear.
2. Practice. Do it to your friend who is unsaved. You can show him tell that he is a sinner. That this sin has its penalty and so forth until you lead him into the acceptance of Christ as his personal Saviour.
3. Partnership. I think you need to have a partner in a soulwinning. This is true to Paul and Silas, Peter and James, Prescilla and Aquila. Then go out into byways and hedges. Act now. Quality Christians produce Quantity Christians.
Anyway, I have to admit I am not as fast as to soul win unsaved friends but I know I have already overcome some of my fears and frustations when it comes to soulwining.

Proverbs 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

[Luke]

I am so distressed today. I got a million thoughts running through my head.. doubts of salvation... I've always been taught "don't question the man of God" and last night I did. On IM, I tried to be gracious and say I was distressed at the lack of outreach.. the pastor replied and said "What would you like us to do about it?"or something to that extent..

But what can I say? We have these books at church from Sword of the Lord on wolves in the church, and one of the signs of the wolves is a desire to run the church.. so any suggestions I give I don't want to be taken as some kind of coup. I responded and gave an example of something that really upset me recently, and he never responded. Now, he may have had something urgent come up, but he still hasn't replied or said anything to me today via email or phone, and to be honest, I doubt he will.

I explained why I didn't go to church yesterday morning, and told him that I am afraid to talk to him because I am afraid of being called unfaithful again. I explained my anguish over the lack of soulwinning and his reply was

"so, that stopped you coming to church this morning?"

Once again, back to the faithfulness to church. I sat at the beach in tears because I was afraid of going to church. I can't listen to a man preach from the pulpit who does nothing outside of it. Granted, he takes a small Bible study on a friday night with a philipino family.

So now I am in a worse state than before. I can't talk to my pastor. He is unnaproachable (while at the same time, telling everyone they need to be servants to one another). I feel totally unsaved because I know he prays more than I do, reads the word more than I do, has a better relationship with God, and here I am, criticising his ministry and I just feel like a wolf, like an unbeliever. And on the other hand, I feel like I am a slave to the pastor, under bondage..

We went to a camp earlier this year that he was meant to organise. But he left almost everything to another pastor that was there. There was meant to be activities for the kids like horse riding, wall climbing etc.. but he neglected to organise any of it, despite it being on the flyers. It was embarassing. And it was hurtful to see how the other pastors spoke to their congregations and friends, and ours didn't speak to us once. In fact, I spoke to the other pastors more than I spoke to my own.

I almost left once before. I even wrote out a letter and was about to give it to the pastor.. it was over the same issue. But shortly after that, I confessed my secret sin to him and asked him to help me. He hasn't really to be honest. He will listen to me... I asked him, as my pastor, to have the password and alerts for the internet filter. He has never ever called anytime to see how I am, especially if he recieves an alert. Sometimes the filter triggers from innocent sites, like flickr or something, but if I actually try to access something, and a legitimate alert comes up, there is never a call. He might ask me after church on sunday.. a few days later, but that's not help.

I am stuck, tormented. I want to serve God and know God..

I really need to know what God wants me to do.

[Greektim]

For what it's worth (coming from a non-KJVO), you are in my prayers. YOu show a lot of maturity in your hesitations. Your respect for the position is commendable. I pray that your pastor will be burdened for the lost as you are burdened.

2 Tim. 4:5

[Luke]

Thanks Tim,

In matters like this, I don't care if you are KJVO or not. It's good to have prayer.

[boaz212]

Hi Luke, I know in part what you are going through. I am sorry that you are in such a difficult situation. I will pray for God to make His way clear to you so you can by faith take that next step. Pastors can be an intimidating figure in the eyes of his flock. We, the flock, often feel that we are not "good" enough to talk to the pastor. But I know when a pastor has a shepherd's heart, he will listen and take care of his sheep with much care and with the word of God. In reading what you wrote about your pastor, I don't believe he's that shepherd. While you are waiting for God to give you the answer, know that He is using this trial to grow and mold you into a humble servant. Please keep us informed of your situation.

Jeremiah 3:15

15And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

[Luke]

I don't feel humble. One of the dangers with me posting this thread is it's very easy for me to give a one sided story, to make him the monster and me the hero... but it's not like that at all. I don't feel humble. I feel like I am rebelling against the "man of God". That I am not submitting to authority. That I am not submitting to God's chosen. But when I think of the results of submitting to that authority it scares me.. because this is what will happen

* I will keep going to church, letting the pastor know that I want to serve God in ministry
* The pastor will let me preach on "men's ministry nights". I get to preach to a crowd of 10 people who are already saved. That's all good and well to feed the flock, but I want to preach to the lost as well.
* He will tell me that there is not enough people to do any large outreach and we need more people
* If I ask about starting a ministry he will say "you are not ready, you and your wife need to be more faithful" or "I will pray about it" but never get back to me..
* He will tell me my faithfulness to everything is paramount.
* In about 6 months I will realise that submission to God's man didn't get me anywhere, and I will be back posting this same thread...

[KingSolomon1611]

Brother Luke (I'm assuming you are saved by grace through faith).

I have read your posts about your concern for your pastor. How long have you been saved? I'm 30 years-old and have been saved since I was 15 years-old. A Christian’s walk with the Lord is not always a mountain top experience. I have been in the valley it seems for the past year. Here is a suggestion for you. Try praying for your pastor. If you have prayed, then try fasting and praying. Surely it is worth fasting for.

If you haven't been praying for him before coming to the forum with it I'd say that this would be back biting. Also consider that if you can pick apart a preacher or church wherever you go you may need to start praying for the Lord to send laborers into the harvest...kind of like praying for patience if you know to what I am alluding.

Consider this verse about your situation and do nothing in haste.

1 Samuel 12:23 (KJV)
23 Moreover as for me, God forbid that I should sin against the LORD in ceasing to pray for you: but I will teach you the good and the right way:

If God calls you to preach and you pastor lets say that you get into a slump and are not witnessing for the Lord. What would you want some concerned Christian to do about it? Would you want him just to ask you about why you don't win souls? Wouldn't you wish for a young man to fast and pray for you? Maybe you should start witnessing to folks without him if you aren't already.

Maybe you could come across someone and ask your pastor, "hey brother I really need your help with this guy...you know more than I do and this guy has a lot of questions and objections ect..." Something like that. Maybe your pastor needs a soft-ball. If you invited him "help" you witness to someone and that person got saved, man I'd bet you'd have to fist fight him to get him to miss the next chance at soul winning. Maybe your pastor is discouraged. Don't throw in the towel on him yet, maybe you can help encourage him to get back on the firing line. Do for him what you would want someone to do for you if you were in his situation…because one day it could be you.

[Luke]

I don't pick apart preachers. I don't sit there and judge other preachers.

For a while I have worried that maybe it is just me..

That is why I have been careful not to use any names in this thread. I'm not trying to "expose" my pastor or anything.

I have prayed for him. And then when he gets up and justifies his lack of outreach by saying God made him that way (shy etc), I just about give up hope... He stands in the pulpit and talks about how he shares the gospel with people. I asked him once how he shared the gospel with people, and he didn't have an answer. He couldn't tell me anyone that he had shared it with lately. He is my pastor! I look up to him and want his guidance...