[drbible1611]

PBIWOLSKI stated:

"The issue is his stance.

His stance is that abortion is wrong and sin.
His stance is that it is no one's right to kill the unborn child.
His stance is that abortion is killing potential preachers and missionaries that God could use for His glory."

Thank you for the clarification.

This has become a major problem for my church in Sydney because a certain Pastor is claiming my Church is a 'CULT' making the claim that because Dr Ruckman teaches abortion is not murder and since several of the members are 'Ruckmanites' then ipso facto we are pro-abortion.

That is untrue and a wicked accusation, but unfortunately once such a lie is promulgated it is very difficult to stop.

I guess it just confirms what we all already know that Satan will even use the 'brethren' to attack a Church that is doing something for the Lord.

[Just_A_Thought]

Originally Posted by atlas

George,





I am glad we agree. Yet Gen. 27 is an open and shut case on it own.

What scripture do I have to use to prove that Ruckman takes Gen. 2:7 out of context other than Gen. 2:7?

Adam was never born, we all were born.

Adam was made from dirt, we were not.

God breathed on him, God did breath not on us.

What other Bible do I need to prove that he takes Gen. 2:7 out of context other than Gen. 2:7?

Gen. 2:7 applies to Adam not every man that was ever born. This is an open an shut case with Gen. 2:7 it's self. I do not need 50 Bible verses to see that he takes Gen. 2:7 out of context.

I do not need more Bible verses to tell me that no person alive today was made of dirt.


Atlas

Atlas,

You are 100% correct. I think these people are not concerned with reality on this.

1) Adams heart started when God breathed into him. Adam was not living before this so his heart could not have been pumping. When does a babies heart start? Long BEFORE birth. Proof in and of itself!

2) God created the baby! Simple enough...why would God create an human baby to kill? Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Apparently God had a plan for the baby long before He created it!

3) Sadly, even the Catholic Church knows abortion is murder yet the "Ruckmanites" can't figure this out.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Just_A_Thought

Atlas,

You are 100% correct. I think these people are not concerned with reality on this.

1) Adams heart started when God breathed into him. Adam was not living before this so his heart could not have been pumping. When does a babies heart start? Long BEFORE birth. Proof in and of itself!

2) God created the baby! Simple enough...why would God create an human baby to kill? Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Apparently God had a plan for the baby long before He created it!

3) Sadly, even the Catholic Church knows abortion is murder yet the "Ruckmanites" can't figure this out.

Your gross generalization about what you call "Ruckmanites" is both inapropriate and entirely wrong.

You know, this whole attack on Ruckman is starting to really make me mad! Ruckman has done more for sound doctrine than ANY man alive today. I dare anyone, no I double dog dare anyone to prove me wrong. If we can't grant this brother in Christ a little grace to make a single mistake, then we have bigger problems to worry about.

We also don't need forum noobs such as yourself coming in here and attacking us for standing for a brother in Christ, even when he's made a mistake. You are in error friend, and off to a bad start on these forums.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

[Luke]

Well, hope you are all happy. The bible correctors have got a hold of that audio on onlinebaptist.com, and so now EVERYTHING associated with Ruckman is wrong. King James Bible and all else.

I can't help but blame myself. I should have known not to give that audio to anyone without first hearing the rest of it. I guess I was too trusting. I did make it quite clear when I linked atlas the audio that it was not the entire sermon, and that I was working on getting the rest of the audio.

I was not expecting Atlas to respond the way he did.

Here is some truth

• Abortion is Murder
• Ruckman teaches Abortion is not murder
• Ruckman is wrong on this issue
• Ruckman teaches abortion is sinful and wrong
• Ruckman is right regarding it being sin and we are now arguing semantics.

[Brother Tim]

Luke, could you tell me this, based on your knowledge of Dr. Ruckman:
If abortion is not murder, but it is sin, then what kind of sin is it?

[George]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Luke, could you tell me this, based on your knowledge of Dr. Ruckman:
If abortion is not murder, but it is sin, then what kind of sin is it?

Aloha Brother Tim,

Since all children are a "gift" from God [Genesis 29:31-35, 33:5, 48:8-9]abortion is a sin against God! If God has "opened" the womb" and blessed a woman (supposed to be the wife of a husband) with "Fruit", it is an affront to God to cast off, destroy, and kill that "life" that God has blessed her (and her husband) with.

The question isn't whether a child in the womb is precious or alive, the question is - does this babe (within the womb) possess a spirit and a soul. And if he/she does - someone ought to be able to produce some Scripture PROVING that he/she does.

[Luke]

It doesn't matter what kind of sin he calls it. Sin is sin. Rebellion against God. I call it murder. He doesn't. It's still a sin.

[Brother Tim]

God held that the taking of a pre-born's life was equivalent to murder.

Exodus 21:22-23 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

[Brother Tim]

George, if it is as you view it, that the spirit and soul become one with the body at birth, then two questions come to my mind:
1 ) Should there not be definitive references made to this in the Scriptures, since the parts of the process take place at different points of time (i.e. life at conception and soul/spirit at birth)?
2 ) If it is true, then a child that dies or is killed in the womb has no soul or spirit and thus ceases to exist at death. Is this not required by this belief.

My contention is that the life that begins at conception is complete with body, soul, and spirit. The lack of definitive Scripture for this implies to me that it was an understood truth, instead of a declared truth. Different Biblical writers seem to take it as a known truth when they speak of the pre-born child.

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Luke, could you tell me this, based on your knowledge of Dr. Ruckman:
If abortion is not murder, but it is sin, then what kind of sin is it?

Originally Posted by Luke

It doesn't matter what kind of sin he calls it. Sin is sin. Rebellion against God. I call it murder. He doesn't. It's still a sin.

That's exactly the right answer, Luke. All unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17). God never demanded that we explicity and precisely define certain sins: only that we avoid them. It is not helpful to insist that our own terminology is "Biblical," unless we're very sure.

Why are people so hung up on the word "murder?" I know I've already said this, but it seems that if somebody doesn't use that particular word, people begin to wonder where he stands.

I consider abortion sin, and either manslaughter or homicide. It is only justified when the mother's life is literally at stake. But the Bible doesn't use the term "murder" for abortion, and I simply refuse to be harrassed or browbeaten into using the word. In my heart, I regard it as murder, and infanticide; but I will choose my own words. If the pro-life activists don't like it, they can lump it.

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

God held that the taking of a pre-born's life was equivalent to murder.

Quote:
Exodus 21:22-23 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

Brother, please answer a very simple question: where, in those verses, does it say that a baby has been deliberately killed, as is the case in abortion?

In fact, where does it say that the baby dies at all? Getting jostled in a fight could cause premature labor, and a premature delivery. Or, it could cause a miscarriage. Either way, there's no deliberate killing of a baby here.

I've heard this passage used by pro-abortion and anti-abortion folks. But it's never been clear to me that it applies to abortion at all.