Originally Posted by Luke

Or what? Now, don't get me wrong, I hate alcohol, and I don't drink it. I consider it sinful to drink. But what are the consequences of drinking it, for a saved person?

You say God demand's abstinence. What are the consequences if a Christian disobeys God and drinks alcohol, according to you (well, according to how you view the Bible).

God's wrath cometh upon the children of disobedience. If they are clearly drinking it despite the fact that God's Word says no, they are in disobedience.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

When people have the attitude that they are going to just deny the clear command, they are yielding theirselves to another master.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Born Crucified

God's wrath cometh upon the children of disobedience. If they are clearly drinking it despite the fact that God's Word says no, they are in disobedience.



When people have the attitude that they are going to just deny the clear command, they are yielding theirselves to another master.

Brother Born, I've always thought His "wrath" is reserved for the unbeliever, His correction and chastisement for the child of God.

Originally Posted by George

I can understand how BC and LindaR hate all alcohol (although there is no way that I can appreciate what they have gone through!). On the other hand, she and BC have taken a personal conviction and have "pushed it to the limit" and I do mean "LIMIT"! Changing the word of God to match a personal conviction is wrong - even if they have a "good" motive.

One reason I haven't taken part in this discussion (of wine) is because I was raised by an alcoholic Mother. I do not care to be lectured on the evils of alcohol by anyone - - - nor do I care to inflict my personal pain on anyone in the guise of "doctrine."

I would be very much surprised if BC did not take his name from a very fine book, Born Crucified, by L. E. Maxwell.

It's on Dr. Ruckman's "Recommended Reading" list!

[George]

Originally Posted by Forrest

That makes sense. Were people "saved" by believing the message of the Prophets?

You wrote:

I realize that they did not know the full message of the Christ as we know it today. But did they know the Christ which God revealed through the Prophets? Did they believe? And was this their salvation?

Aloha brother Forrest,

My answer to your first question: People were "saved" by believing God {for whatever He revealed to them} and obeying (acting on) His word (oral or written). {But He didn't reveal the "Gospel" (that Paul preached) to them. I will have more to say in another Post.}

My answer to your second question: The Prophets did not know the "Gospel" that Paul preached and neither did any of the people who heard them, and so their "salvation" was based on them believing what God revealed to them and their obeying whatever commands that He required of them under the different Covenants. Their "salvation" was not predicated on them "understanding" every word that the Prophets "spoke", their "salvation" was based on believing whatever words God revealed unto them and obeying those words. {None of us understands everything in God's Holy word. Our salvation is not based on us understanding every word that God has written - it is based on whatever truth that God has revealed unto each us from His word. }

Thusly: I do not believe that: "they knew the Christ which God revealed through the Prophets".

You ask: "Did they believe?" Yes, they believed God, but they did NOT know Paul's "Gospel" or the Christ of that Gospel.

You asked: "And was this their salvation?" I don't believe so. Neither the Prophets, nor the people who heard them knew Paul's "Gospel" or the Christ of that Gospel.

Adam was commanded not to eat - just one fruit! When he disobeyed = Judgment & then Grace - There was No "faith" involved on Adam's part in his "salvation" (Pure Mercy & Grace!). Noah was commanded to build an ark! He obeyed and built that boat (by faith), but what would have happened had he failed to obey God's command and though he had "faith", he failed to build the ark?

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Noah was NOT "saved" by believing the "Gospel" of Jesus Christ (that Paul preached). Noah was "saved" (and "his house") because when God warned him of the Flood that was coming ("things not seen as yet"), he believed God's warning (that is - what God had revealed unto him about the coming Flood) and, though he couldn't SEE any physical evidence of the Flood, by faith he obeyed God and built the Ark. {Believing in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ (Paul's Gospel) had nothing to do with his "salvation". And by the way, his "salvation" was from the Flood (a physical catastrophe caused by God), not from Hell - that's another matter all together.}

The "believing" is the same under every Covenant, but the "faith" is not - That is why it is so important for Bible believers to "rightly divide" between "BELIEF" and "FAITH".

God has required of everyone under every Covenant and in every "age" that they "BELIEVE" His words {Oral or Written} and OBEY them. We are very fortunate that under the "New" Covenant: All we have to do to get saved is to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, . . . ." {When WE "BELIEVE" in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection and "RECEIVE" Him as our personal Saviour, we have done (obeyed) all that God has required of us (under the "New" Covenant) to get saved} - But, it hasn't always been the "same" for those people (living under different "Covenants") who lived before Christ's death, burial, and resurrection; and it won't be the same for those who are left after we are translated out of this world.

I sincerely hope this may be of some help to you.

Originally Posted by Forrest

Brother Born, I've always thought His "wrath" is reserved for the unbeliever, His correction and chastisement for the child of God.

Actually, God will chastise the saved. But one who stubbornly rebels against God's clear commands, is that one truly of God?

Jesus said many who thought they were of Christ would one day find out that they were not of Christ at all. (Matthew 7:24)

Scripture warns of false teachers that will arise these last days and will lead people astray. How many are led astray by the falsehood that God allows them to consume alcohol? The very drink they claim that God allows kills tens of thousands a year.

My Bible tells me that woe is ahead for the one that puts a bottle to his neighbor's lips. Yet, we know God's people are not appointed to wrath.

So you tell me.... is God going to say 'Well done, thou good and faithful servant' to the one who ignores His clear command for abstinence and deceives many by telling them it is ok to drink?

In light of this verse,

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

I would say God is indeed angry with the wicked every day and His wrath will come upon them just as His Word declares.

Originally Posted by Vendetta Ride

One reason I haven't taken part in this discussion (of wine) is because I was raised by an alcoholic Mother. I do not care to be lectured on the evils of alcohol by anyone - - - nor do I care to inflict my personal pain on anyone in the guise of "doctrine."

I would be very much surprised if BC did not take his name from a very fine book, Born Crucified, by L. E. Maxwell.

It's on Dr. Ruckman's "Recommended Reading" list!

Born Crucified is also on Moody's list. As a matter of fact, it is put out by Moody Press... where I got it from.

An excellent book. In it, Maxwell explains how the flesh is crucified and the lusts thereof. Funny how many want to feed the flesh the poison that God tells His children to avoid. (apparently, they have not crucified the flesh)

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha brother Forrest,

God has required of everyone under every Covenant and in every "age" that they "BELIEVE" His words {Oral or Written} and OBEY them. We are very fortunate that under the "New" Covenant: All we have to do to get saved is to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, . . . ." {When WE "BELIEVE" in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection and "RECEIVE" Him as our personal Saviour, we have done (obeyed) all that God has required of us (under the "New" Covenant) to get saved} - But, it hasn't always been the "same" for those people (living under different "Covenants") who lived before Christ's death, burial, and resurrection; and it won't be the same for those who are left after we are translated out of this world.

I sincerely hope this may be of some help to you.

It has helped. "If you're saved and ya know it clap your hands!" I'm clapping, Brother George!

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Born Crucified

Actually, God will chastise the saved. But one who stubbornly rebels against God's clear commands, is that one truly of God?

I must confess, brother, I have been stubborn and I have rebelled. And God chastened, because He loves me and desired the fruit of righteousness.

So you tell me.... is God going to say 'Well done, thou good and faithful servant' to the one who ignores His clear command for abstinence and deceives many by telling them it is ok to drink?

None of us really deserve "well done". But by the precious blood of Christ, I am cleansed, forgiven, justified, redeemed, and declared righteous. WHAT A SAVIOUR!!!

Originally Posted by Forrest

I must confess, brother, I have been stubborn and I have rebelled. And God chastened, because He loves me and desired the fruit of righteousness. None of us really deserve "well done". But by the precious blood of Christ, I am cleansed, forgiven, justified, redeemed, and declared righteous. WHAT A SAVIOUR!!!

AMEN!!!
HOORAY FOR JESUS!!!

[Luke]

I've done much worse than drink alcohol after salvation.

But here you go, since you seem to think, like others who have come here before you, that you can live a life of sinless perfection and full submission to God -

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Is there any time in your Christian life when you have known that it would have been God's will to do one thing, but you did another, or did nothing at all. The Bible says IT IS SIN - DISOBEDIENCE.

You are saved, not sinless.