[custer]

Originally Posted by chette777

Ok, I misjudged peoples thought action including yours. could you perhaps have done the same in understanding Bro George's statement? you will have to have more grace than normal in reading posts and just don't read to much into it. Just take the words consider if you disagree that is ok. I could not see that he threw a tantrum in his response to you.

both would be fine.

I think we can all safely move back to the original topic of the thread.

Ummm, it sounds like from your post that maybe you haven't seen George's full assessment of me! There's some on the Love and Race thread as well as the Biblical Marriage one - maybe more on the Love and Race, I don't remember right off hand. Anyway, my point is that his ATTACKS were on ME personally, not on any info or scripture that I provided...I'm saying that I (and everyone reading) understood him perfectly; he was rather clear - there was no way to misunderstand and no cause to read too much into it!

I am only clarifying this further because it is EXACTLY the kind of thing that Bro. Parrish was talking about. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Bro. Parrish!)

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

Pam, as I say I love all of you in Christ,
let's just move forward, try and get back to topic and see how it goes.

[chette777]

I went a reread thread on biblical marriage and I understood exactly what George's assessment of you. I analyzed your and his posts see that thread for some advice.

let me ask you Are any of those things in George's assessment true? if not let it go. if they are then change those areas in your life.

If George is wrong prove it not by arguing but by your attitude in those things he assessed.

[Brother Tim]

To get this thread back on balance (or to bring it to an end), I would like to summarize my position on the various points brought out (that at least have something to do with the topic ):

1. Ham did SOMETHING that so offended his father, Noah, that Noah spoke a curse upon the decendents of ONE of Ham's children, Canaan. What that deed was is not explicitly explained in the passage or elsewhere in the Scriptures. Sufficient, therefore, is that we accept that it had to have been a gross offense. To attempt to define what it was is nothing more than speculation.

2. The decendents of Canaan settled in the region that later became known by his name. It was the land later given by God to Abraham.

3. Because this is a curse spoken by a man and not God, we cannot tell the duration or the extent of its application. There is Scriptural evidence of the curse being in effect to some degree. [Example: the Gibeonites] To say that the curse is still in effect is not provable, primarily due to inability to clearly distinguish the decendents of each affected party. [such as: Who today are the decendents of Canaan? Where are the tents of Shem? etc]

4. It is Biblically clear that Black Africans are not the decendents of Canaan, and therefore the past and present slavery of Blacks by Whites has nothing whatsoever to do with this curse.

An additional personal observation: The intermingling of the decendents of Noah is so extensive today that it is impossible to divide the peoples of this earth into each of the three sons' families. The possible exception would be some "nations" such as the Jews that have maintained isolation as a practice. Even there, the scattered ten tribes are likely lost.

I would greatly appreciate each of the principal posters on this thread, in particular, Chette, to comment on my four points.

[Jassy]

I've sat back and watched this thread unfold. I haven't posted anything. I actually have no wisdom to share on this particular topic and I admit my ignorance in this. Yet, it was sad to me to see how this unfolded. I don't think that people have the right to label others and continue to see them through the narrow filter that they've devised for them, according to a particular person's posts on other threads. I don't understand how threads can go off target from a clear topic to name-calling and character-bashing.

As I see it, you are all fellow believers in Jesus Christ and, hopefully, all upholders of the KJV Bible, as I am. If not, then I'd question the sincerity of your membership here. If you come with a genuine desire to know the truth - then, of course, you are welcome. If you come to spread dissention and division amongst the KJV Bible-believers, then that certainly is NOT welcome. There is plenty of room for that on other Forums.

Honestly, if people are going to always be picking at each other, finding others' weaknesses, and eagerly seeking to point out the errors of others, how do we say that we are brethren in the Lord? I believe it is with MUCH humility that one ought to express any type of disagreement and questioning of another brother or sister in Christ. The Bible says to CONFESS our FAULTS one to another... it doesn't say to SEEK OUT and PICK ON EACH OTHER for those faults!!

The apostle Paul should indeed be our guide as to how to conduct ourselves. He often spoke of humility and being humble.

Acts 20:19 - "Serving the LORD with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations..."

Even Christ humbled himself!

Philippians 2:8 - And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

Colossians 3:12 - Put on therefore, as the elect of god, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Where is our humbleness, meekness and longsuffering (patience)?

James 4:10 - "Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up."

We don't lift ourselves up - but the LORD does it.

1 Peter 5:6 - "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:"

Do you know why I and others here at this Forum tend to look up to brother George? I respect him as my "elder" - and I make myself humble, according to his greater knowledge of the Scriptures. According to the Bible, this is correct.

1 Peter 5:5 - "Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject to another and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble."

I believe that brother George has steadfastly reminded people to remain focused on the Scriptures that have relevance and, as brother Forrest does, to set our eyes on CHRIST.

Colossians 2:8 - "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

I've been consistently reminded of that here on this Forum. We are to look to the Scriptures for wisdom and knowledge. As people often will say "What saith the Scripture." or "Yea, hath God said..." We have to be careful that we don't attribute our own biases and misguided understandings to be the wisdom of God. We always must compare Scripture with Scripture, to find the truth... and also make sure that we are rightly dividing the Word of truth.

I'm reminded of Colossians 2:16 -"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
17 - "Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
18 - "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,"
19 - "And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God."
20 - "Wherefore if ye be dead in Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,"
21 - "(Touch not; taste not; handle not;"
22 - "Which all are to perish with the using; )" after the commandments and doctrines of men?"
23 - "Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."

For people to hold onto grudges or past slights and refer back to them, is just immaturity. Truly we need to forgive and forget - to move forward as ONE BODY IN CHRIST!! Have we forgotten that WE are the BODY and that He (the LORD) is the HEAD? Would he want all this backstabbing and bickering and foolish name-calling? What happens to the edification and learning? That is what I came to this Forum to do: learn - To grow in wisdom and knowledge of the Word; and to fellowship with brethren who uphold the King James Bible.

I don't think we should be here to try to "one up" each other. Let us remember:

1 Corinthians 14:33 - "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

And remember that we all have different roles to play, according to how the Lord has placed us in the Body of Christ. One of us is not more important than any of the others... no matter how "lowly" their own role may seem.

Ephesians 4:11 - "And he gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"
12 - "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"
13 - "Till we all come in the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:"
14 - "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"
15 - "But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:"
16 - "From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."

Keep reading there in Colossians 2 - and then think of this Forum as a microcosom of the larger Body of Christ. We should walk in a way that edifies others and in a way that new people that come to the Forum can immediately see the love that we have for one another here. I have FELT that love here - we need to focus on that and not let petty differences come between us as brethren.

Jassy

[custer]

Originally Posted by chette777

I went a reread thread on biblical marriage and I understood exactly what George's assessment of you. I analyzed your and his posts see that thread for some advice.

let me ask you Are any of those things in George's assessment true? if not let it go. if they are then change those areas in your life.

If George is wrong prove it not by arguing but by your attitude in those things he assessed.

Chette,

George's assessment of me is very UNTRUE...you could ask anybody who knows me (he definitely does not!) And I don't remember arguing about that stuff!

But my whole point has been - why was George assessing me at all? I just wanted to discuss the issue and the scripture...

With that said, George has caused me to wonder about people and their assessment of themselves; I'll post that separately!

I have answered you in the Biblical Marriage thread as well. THANK YOU!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

[custer]

Well, I definitely agree with Bro. Parrish - that we should avoid the bickering...so let it be known that the purpose of this post is simply to 'share' a little word study that I have done that has helped me (and I believe will help anyone reading it) to understand the foundation of some of the squabbling on here! (And perhaps with this realization, the situation could be remedied!)

I guess a good 'jumping off place' would be Bro. Parrish's proposed "dislike for George." Bro. Parrish has, of course, cleared this up and has stated on more than one occasion that he has a LOVE for all of us. BUT, the fact is that George absolutely delights in being a very UNlikable person - hence his chosen description of himself..."the old curmudgeon!" Now, I don't mind telling you that I had never even heard or seen that word until I saw George use it here (many times) to refer to himself. So, naturally, I was curious as to the definition of "curmudgeon." (I was shocked by what I've found, which is why I am posting this!!) I used three dictionaries so that hopefully I could get a complete picture:

curmudgeon: a surly, cantankerous person
curmudgeon: a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man
curmudgeon: an avaricious, churlish fellow; a miser; a niggard; a churl

and more on those defining words...
surly: gloomily morose; crabbed; snarling; sternly sour; rough; cross and rude
surly: arrogant, imperious; irritably sullen and churlish in mood or manner
surly: bad-tempered; sullenly rude; uncivil
cantankerous: bad-tempered; quarrelsome
cantankerous: difficult or irritating to deal with
crusty: peevish; snappish; morose; surly
crusty: insolent [insolent: impudent]
crusty: giving an effect of surly incivility in address or disposition
churlish: marked by a lack of civility or graciousness; difficult to work with or deal with
churlish: resembling or befitting a boor (a rude or insensitive person)
churlish: rude; surly; austere; sullen; rough in temper; unfeeling; uncivil; selfish; etc.

Now, before I proceed, let me remind everyone that ALL OF THIS IS GEORGE'S ASSESSMENT OF HIS OWN PERSONALITY, not MY description of him!!! (That is what is so mind-boggling about this!) Next, all you Bible readers will recall that the only 'churlish' man in the Bible is Nabal. (Who in their right mind glories in that their disposition matches Nabal's - a man that God killed for railing on David's men!!!???) Also, you can see the 'churl' in Isaiah 32:5 and 32:7 - the words associated with him are "vile," "evil," "wicked," and "lying words." Again, remember this is the very definition of the word George always uses to tell people about himself...I guess we can't say he didn't warn us!

When I saw that George had equated himself with Nabal, I read the whole story of Nabal again to gain more insight. In I Samuel 25:14, one of the young men told Abigail that Nabal "railed on" David's messengers. (This, by George's own admission [remember: "curmudgeon,"] from my own experience with George, and from Bro. Parrish's witness, is very characteristic of George!) Then, to find out what our reaction to a railer should be, we search Paul and find I Cor. 5:11 - "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat." (emphasis mine)

Since Chette wisely pointed out that in these posts we cannot hear intonation or have eye contact or see body language, I thought that we should consider that maybe George is being facetious when he calls himself "the old curmudgeon." But the first thought that comes to mind is Prov. 14:9 - "Fools make a mock at sin..." Yes, I know that we all have our problems in the flesh, but are we to make light of them...joke about them? I have a rather diverse sense of humor, but flippantly boasting that you are imitating Nabal or Isaiah 32's "churl" IS NOT FUNNY! What's next? Demas? Judas?

Just to be clear, let me say it again...this post is only made up of GEORGE'S APPRAISAL OF HIS OWN CHARACTER!!! I simply didn't know what a "curmudgeon" was and wondered how many of the other forum members knew. And, like I said, I am posting this because it is shocking and disgusting - and it definitely helped me to see where George was coming from...so, thank you, George for that (one) word of testimony!

This made me really wonder too, Chette, why you would choose to label Bro. Parrish and me as "ingrates" in reference to all the time you say George has put into Bible study. What are you suggesting that we should be grateful for? I am grateful for my King James Bible, the Holy Spirit, and my concordance! If I had to choose between NOT having a human Bible teacher and having a self-proclaimed "curmudgeon" as a Bible teacher, I would choose to have only the Holy Spirit any day...who wouldn't?

Well, I know this post is still off-topic, but in light of all the seeming confusion about what has transpired between who, it is clear that George's commentary on himself would be more appropriate than anything the rest of us say in relation to him...wouldn't you agree?

As an aside, Jassy, I appreciated your post and would like to make it clear that I have not had any problem PERSONALLY with George (his curmudgeonliness is between him and the Lord!)...my 'gripe' all along (and I've told him this time and again) is that he refuses to discuss scripture when it disagrees with his position!

Thanks for listening!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by custer

Well, I definitely agree with Bro. Parrish - that we should avoid the bickering...so let it be known that the purpose of this post is simply to 'share' a little word study that I have done that has helped me (and I believe will help anyone reading it) to understand the foundation of some of the squabbling on here! (And perhaps with this realization, the situation could be remedied!)

I guess a good 'jumping off place' would be Bro. Parrish's proposed "dislike for George." Bro. Parrish has, of course, cleared this up and has stated on more than one occasion that he has a LOVE for all of us. BUT, the fact is that George absolutely delights in being a very UNlikable person - hence his chosen description of himself..."the old curmudgeon!" Now, I don't mind telling you that I had never even heard or seen that word until I saw George use it here (many times) to refer to himself. So, naturally, I was curious as to the definition of "curmudgeon." (I was shocked by what I've found, which is why I am posting this!!) I used three dictionaries so that hopefully I could get a complete picture:

curmudgeon: a surly, cantankerous person
curmudgeon: a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man
curmudgeon: an avaricious, churlish fellow; a miser; a niggard; a churl

and more on those defining words...
surly: gloomily morose; crabbed; snarling; sternly sour; rough; cross and rude
surly: arrogant, imperious; irritably sullen and churlish in mood or manner
surly: bad-tempered; sullenly rude; uncivil
cantankerous: bad-tempered; quarrelsome
cantankerous: difficult or irritating to deal with
crusty: peevish; snappish; morose; surly
crusty: insolent [insolent: impudent]
crusty: giving an effect of surly incivility in address or disposition
churlish: marked by a lack of civility or graciousness; difficult to work with or deal with
churlish: resembling or befitting a boor (a rude or insensitive person)
churlish: rude; surly; austere; sullen; rough in temper; unfeeling; uncivil; selfish; etc.

Now, before I proceed, let me remind everyone that ALL OF THIS IS GEORGE'S ASSESSMENT OF HIS OWN PERSONALITY, not MY description of him!!! (That is what is so mind-boggling about this!) Next, all you Bible readers will recall that the only 'churlish' man in the Bible is Nabal. (Who in their right mind glories in that their disposition matches Nabal's - a man that God killed for railing on David's men!!!???) Also, you can see the 'churl' in Isaiah 32:5 and 32:7 - the words associated with him are "vile," "evil," "wicked," and "lying words." Again, remember this is the very definition of the word George always uses to tell people about himself...I guess we can't say he didn't warn us!

When I saw that George had equated himself with Nabal, I read the whole story of Nabal again to gain more insight. In I Samuel 25:14, one of the young men told Abigail that Nabal "railed on" David's messengers. (This, by George's own admission [remember: "curmudgeon,"] from my own experience with George, and from Bro. Parrish's witness, is very characteristic of George!) Then, to find out what our reaction to a railer should be, we search Paul and find I Cor. 5:11 - "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat." (emphasis mine)

Since Chette wisely pointed out that in these posts we cannot hear intonation or have eye contact or see body language, I thought that we should consider that maybe George is being facetious when he calls himself "the old curmudgeon." But the first thought that comes to mind is Prov. 14:9 - "Fools make a mock at sin..." Yes, I know that we all have our problems in the flesh, but are we to make light of them...joke about them? I have a rather diverse sense of humor, but flippantly boasting that you are imitating Nabal or Isaiah 32's "churl" IS NOT FUNNY! What's next? Demas? Judas?

Just to be clear, let me say it again...this post is only made up of GEORGE'S APPRAISAL OF HIS OWN CHARACTER!!! I simply didn't know what a "curmudgeon" was and wondered how many of the other forum members knew. And, like I said, I am posting this because it is shocking and disgusting - and it definitely helped me to see where George was coming from...so, thank you, George for that (one) word of testimony!

This made me really wonder too, Chette, why you would choose to label Bro. Parrish and me as "ingrates" in reference to all the time you say George has put into Bible study. What are you suggesting that we should be grateful for? I am grateful for my King James Bible, the Holy Spirit, and my concordance! If I had to choose between NOT having a human Bible teacher and having a self-proclaimed "curmudgeon" as a Bible teacher, I would choose to have only the Holy Spirit any day...who wouldn't?

Well, I know this post is still off-topic, but in light of all the seeming confusion about what has transpired between who, it is clear that George's commentary on himself would be more appropriate than anything the rest of us say in relation to him...wouldn't you agree?

As an aside, Jassy, I appreciated your post and would like to make it clear that I have not had any problem PERSONALLY with George (his curmudgeonliness is between him and the Lord!)...my 'gripe' all along (and I've told him this time and again) is that he refuses to discuss scripture when it disagrees with his position!

Thanks for listening!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

2 Kings 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

Now George is not Elisha but the Lord is not mocked. Be careful.

[chette777]

what happened to Mary by the way. she is the one who started this thread.

I think I will not share my beliefs on hot topic threads from now on.

[Brother Tim]

Chette, before you leave this thread (that is being seriously hijacked), please respond to my post #84, which is on-topic.