[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

To those of you who have only recently started denying that Christ will marry the Church, please consider the fact that you DID believe it for many years prior to coming to your current conclusion, and maybe cut the rest of us a bit of slack. The truth WILL come out in the end, maybe not this side of glory.

If it is true that Christ "will marry" the church, why then are we "married" (Rom.7) and IS "one flesh" (Eph 5) with Him right NOW.

Again, here is a CLEAR, DEFINITE Scripture that tells us of a FUTURE MARRIAGE BETWEEN GOD AND THE NATION (AS WELL AS THE LAND) OF ISRAEL.

Isaiah 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and THY LAND SHALL BE MARRIED.
Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so SHALL thy God rejoice over thee.

"Shall" - FUTURE TENSEPlease answer this: When will Isaiah 62:4,5 be fulfilled?

[Winman]

I am not sure I should be participating in this particular discussion, I am no Bible scholar at all, just a simple fellow who reads the Bible and asks God to show me what it means.

But I do find this an interesting subject, and I have read the posts and arguments for both sides. I was taught the church was the bride, I must confess it is difficult to give up something you have been taught like this. But I do want to know the truth, come what may. So, I did a little bit of study on my own.

I approached it a little differently, I did not so much study verses with the word "bride". I wanted to know more about New Jerusalem. If we know who inhabits New Jerusalem, then we know who the bride in Revelations is.

Now, to me, it is still the church, and here are the verses that say so to me.

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

And then in Hebrews

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. 18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake: ) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

In Galatians, Paul is talking to the church. And in Hebrews it describes the inhabitants of New Jerusalem including "the general assembly and church of the firstborn".

And then in Revelations 3

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Here, John is speaking to the church.

So, that's my take on this subject.

[Biblestudent]

Hi, winman!
I am also a "Bible student" but no Bible scholar.

We need to rightly divide "church".

WHICH "church"? Please visit my post here (post #5):
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509

There is a church, "WHICH is the body of Christ", and there are churches which are not the body of Christ.

1. The "church of the firstborn" (Exo. 4:22, "Israel is my firstborn") is certainly not "the church, which is the body of Christ".

2. The "seven churches" on the Lord's day (Rev. 1:10; Joel 2) are local churches which existed during the Acts period but will be existing again during the Tribulation period ("Lord's day"). These are certainly not the "church, which is the body of Christ".
That is, if John is speaking to a "church", which "church"? Is he writing to the Body of Christ in the Age of Grace, or to seven local churches which are in Asia on the Lord's day?

3. I have come across Galatians 4:22-31 but I don't really done deeply into it, but Paul is talking about an "allegory" here. It seems that the CONTEXT is not about a discussion on "church" but being "free" from the bondage of the law.

Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

The subject matter here is: "these are the two covenants".

"Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of US all" (Gal. 4:26)

Who is the "US"? If the "US" is the "church, which is the body of Christ", then who is the "mother of US all"?

Is the "mother" and "us" the same?

[Biblestudent]

Brother Winman, I hope you will notice that this is written to the Hebrews and not to the Body of Christ:
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake: )
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Israel, which is the "church of the firstborn" (Exo. 4:22; Heb. 12:23) is under NEW COVENANT (Jer. 31:31-34) as well as under the NEW TESTAMENT (Heb 8:8-11; 9:16,17).

The Church, which is the body of Christ, is neither under any OT "COVENANT" (Eph. 2:12) nor under the "new covenant" (Jer 31:31). By grace, however, we were able to be included in the "new TESTAMENT" (2 Cor. 3:6) by grace, as well as by the blood of Christ (Eph 2:13; Heb 9:16,17)

[Biblestudent]

I would like to add some more points:
1. In Galatians, it's Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles who is speaking.
2. In Revelation, it's John the Apostle to the Jews who is speaking.
3. Therefore, in Galatians, the context of the "Jerusalem which is from above" is in relation to the Body of Christ; on the other hand, in Revelation, the context is "New Jerusalem" in relation to Israel.

[Winman]

Who is the "US"? If the "US" is the "church, which is the body of Christ", then who is the "mother of US all"?

Is the "mother" and "us" the same?

The answers to both are in the very verses. "Us" is believers under the covenant of grace.

Earthly Jerusalem is the bondmaid, Jerusalem which is above is the freewoman.

An allegory is just a representative picture. The bondmaid represents flesh and the bondage of law, the freewoman represents Spirit and freedom and faith.

And you can call John what you wish, he was clearly speaking to churches in Revelations 3.

Revelations 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelations 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[Biblestudent]

Which "church"?

The churches in Revelation 2 and 3 are local churches in the Tribulation period and not the Body of Christ in the Age of Grace.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1. When will the devil be bodily present and literally cast people in prison? When will he put people in tribulation ten days?
2. When will life becomes a "crown", while today, it's a gift (Rom. 6:23)?
3. When will a person has to overcome in order to escape the "second death" (lake of fire)?

Compare the following:
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Revelation 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

with:

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdomshall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


1. "Great tribulation" is in BOTH contexts.
2. Ruling in the kingdom is in BOTH contexts.
3. Enduring the great tribulation to the end ("till he come") in order to be saved and enter the kingdom is in BOTH contexts.

The "morning star" is Christ. Do I have to overcome and keep His works until the second coming in order to receive "the morning star"?

Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

"covenant of grace"

As I've said, the church is not under any "covenant" but under a "testament". covenant is not the same as a testament. Please read Hebrews 9:15-17.

Covenant does not require death and blood, but a testament surely does.
The church is under the "new testament" by grace (by virtue of the DEATH and BLOOD of Christ), and not under the "new covenant".

Context determines meaning. The context of Revelation 2 and 3 is not Church Age.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Brother Kiwi, you have not addressed any of the Scriptures we presented. What you did is force Pauline writings into Johanine epistles. To me, that is definitely not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Johanine epistles? Brother, I addressed the scriptures that needed addressing in my mind, and they were the ones written to me by Paul the Apostle. I have explained that I don't agree with the way you have handled those texts in dismissing them as figurative only.

While I have certainly appreciated the lengthy posts and citing of many scriptures on your part, I think you're over-dividing the word by more or less saying that John wrote the book of Revelation to Israel, and calling John “the Apostle to the Jews”. Do you even think 1 John 1:9 applies to the Christian?

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

1. Here are clear-cult Scriptures that "the bride" is associated with Israel, and not once ever associated with the Church. (I'm 100% sure there is no Scripture that ever calls the church the "bride".)

So what if Paul never called the Church a bride? Paul used the words “espoused”, "chaste virgin", “married”, and “wife” in relation to Christ and the Church, and ALL of those words are associated with the word “bride”.

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

2. Here is a clear-cut Scripture where Israel will have a future marriage with God:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

3. Now, I want you to interpret LITERALLY who are being referred to LITERALLY in those passages.

I don’t dispute that Israel will be married again to God (Jehovah) in the future, I dispute that Israel will be married to JESUS CHRIST, and that verse above says no such thing. Israel will be reunited with her Husband again, but it’s the Father not the Son.

[CKG]

Historically the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 were churches present in John's day.

“…What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.” (Revelation 1:11)

“Write the things which thou hast seen, (the vision of the Glorified Lord Jesus - Rev 1) and the things which are (the seven churches in Asia - Rev 2 & 3), and the things which shall be hereafter; (Rev 4 - 22)” (Revelation 1:19)

Doctrinally they are representative of various churches in any age.

Spiritually the represent the church age from the early church to the present day.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

If it is true that Christ "will marry" the church, why then are we "married" (Rom.7) and IS "one flesh" (Eph 5) with Him right NOW.

I explained in an earlier post that I believe we are married to Jesus Christ now spiritually, but that the physical union is yet future, when our bodies are redeemed.

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Again, here is a CLEAR, DEFINITE Scripture that tells us of a FUTURE MARRIAGE BETWEEN GOD AND THE NATION (AS WELL AS THE LAND) OF ISRAEL.

Isaiah 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and THY LAND SHALL BE MARRIED.
Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so SHALL thy God rejoice over thee.

"Shall" - FUTURE TENSEPlease answer this: When will Isaiah 62:4,5 be fulfilled?

I've got no problem with this passage, it likely refers to the Millennium, but where does it say Israel will marry Jesus Christ? Also you forgot to highlight the double usage of the simile "as" in Isa 62:5, as you have so often highlighted in your previous refutations.