[Billie]

[QUOTE=peopleoftheway;13011]First before I answer this quote may I address the Brethren first, George Forrest, Chette, Luke, Stephen, pbiwolski, Here am I, Renee, Billie, Tim and many more who I have come to be blessed by on this forum.
Apologies that I am not on here much as I still have no internet at home and do not wish to post in active topics when my reply to them is limited, but reading over the forums lately I have to post on this topic if I may.






Hi People

Thanks for your kind words, we miss you and pray that you'll have your internet up at home very soon. And we value your input on the topics.
Nice to hear from you.

Blessings to you and family,

Billie

MC1171611,

Again, my personal beliefs are not the topic of this thread. Your comments contain several errors (strawmen) about my position, and if you or anyone else really want to discuss my position rather than just try to publicly oppose me for whatever reason you have, you are more than welcome to email me.

God bless,
Brian

[MC1171611]

Prov. 22:10 Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.

[George]

Re: " Heresies & Hereticks"

Aloha brother VR,

Thanks so much for the compliment. I also have enjoyed your Posts (especially your sense of humor), and I appreciate any and all comments or suggestions that you may make. {I have never claimed "infallibility" for my Posts - Like I do for my Bible . }

I believe that we really are not very far apart on our understanding of the difference between an Apostate and a Heretick.

I believe that an Apostate is someone that has abandoned (or forsaken) his/her religion or sect (beliefs or doctrines) entirely, or nearly so. And who (normally) embraces a new or different religion or sect (beliefs or doctrines - often in opposition to what he/she believed before.)

While a Heretick is someone who professes to believe in a particular religion or sect but who twists, or changes, or subtracts or adds to one or more (but not many) major tenants of that religion or sect.

I don't think that I did a very good job expressing what I believe in the Post (limited space - is just as good as any other excuse ). However I will endeavor to explain myself more fully in the following. For example I Posted:

1. A person who - Does not believe in God (The God of the Bible) = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.

It would have been more self-explanatory had I perhaps done it this way:

1. A person who - Does not believe in God (The God of the Bible) = an Atheist, or an Agnostic, or (possibly) an APOSTATE.

The point that I was trying to get across is that (Biblically) while it is possible for an Apostate to walk away from (forsake) his religion or sect (for example - not believe in God anymore), a Heretick (Biblically) cannot do that without becoming an Apostate. {Whereupon they lose their "heretick" status and become something else!}

I didn't mean to "lump" Apostates with Atheists and Agnostics as being the same. But I can see where someone could have gotten the impression (from my Post) that all Apostates do not believe in God, and instead, what I was trying to convey is that an Apostate (Biblically) can (possibly) hold to a belief that there is no God, but a Heretick (Biblically) cannot. Thus the whole purpose was to try to differentiate between the two.

There is a "line" that a Heretick must cross in order to become an Apostate and the purpose of the Post was to try to illustrate that "line". or "lines", (said "illustrations", I in no way claim to be "perfect")

Although there is a fine line between the two - Someone who is an Apostate cannot possibly be a Heretick, since an Apostate turns his/her back on their religion (beliefs or doctrines) and forsakes it, while the Heretick will hang in there and pretend that he/she believes what everyone else in his/her religion or sect believes, but in reality they do not believe EVERYTHING that they profess to believe. {In other words a Heretick is a "wolf in sheep's clothing", while an Apostate is a "wolf" in wolf's clothing!}

It's pretty easy to spot an Apostate, while on the other hand, a Heretick is "horse of another color"!{a "false brethren" perhaps?}

I would think that all Cults and Religions that profess to believe in God (or a god) Mormons, JW's, etc,; Islam, Baha'i, etc.; are not technically "atheist", since they profess to believe in "god", I would classify them under the title of unbelievers or non-believers.

Your comments on "major" or "minor" doctrines is well taken, and that is why I listed most of (what I consider) the "major" doctrines in my Post (although I couldn't Post all) - and certainly there may be some that genuine Bible believers may disagree on, but I think most reasonable believers could come to an agreement on most.

I have a question though about your take on "Mormons" or "other Cults" - If they never believed the Truth (The Gospel and the Major Biblical Doctrines) I cannot understand how they can be "heretics" (in the Biblical sense), since they never believed the Truth in the beginning?

I believe that if we were to sit down and hash this thing out face to face (verbally), that there wouldn't be one iota's difference between us.

Again brother, let me say (sincerely) that I appreciate any and all input from brethren that I know who are also sincere (present company accepted!) I am willing to be corrected anytime, since I desire to embrace as pure doctrine as I possibly can.

Your criticisms are appreciated and please don't hesitate to comment on my Posts. I may be an "old curmudgeon", but I'm a good listener when it comes to brethren that I respect and care for. {"Humanists", "Sophists", and "Heretics" are another story.}

Originally Posted by George

Aloha brother VR,

.... I believe that we really are not very far apart on our understanding of the difference between an Apostate and a Heretick.

God bless you, brother, you're probably right. And even if you're wrong, even if we do disagree over terminology, so what? Obviously, we're on the same page. The Heavens do not quake, and the earth does not shudder, if we're not on precisely the same paragraph.

I believe that an Apostate is someone that has abandoned (or forsaken) his/her religion or sect (beliefs or doctrines) entirely, or nearly so. And who (normally) embraces a new or different religion or sect (beliefs or doctrines - often in opposition to what he/she believed before.)

Right. Except that an apostate need not embrace a new theology or ideology; he may simply cease (consciously) to believe in any system at all. (Behaviorally, and practically, he will, like all human beings, hew to whatever personal standards suit his temperament and desires, be they altruistic or hedonistic.) A "Christian" who ceases to believe in Christ does not need to embrace Buddha in order to be an apostate: it's the departure from the faith that defines him as an apostate, not the arrival at some new belief.

While a Heretick is someone who professes to believe in a particular religion or sect but who twists, or changes, or subtracts or adds to one or more (but not many) major tenants of that religion or sect.

Um, perhaps. Joseph Smith and the Popes are good examples:they claim to believe in the Biblical revelation, but then add their own accretions. However, I would hesitate to call Ian Paisley a "heretic" because he believes in TULIP and baby-sprinkling, nor would I call a charismatic a "heretic" for believing his own daffy conceits. Such people, I believe, are sincerely mistaken: some out of ignorance (a kid raised in a Foursquare Gospel church), some out of intellectual pride or stubbornness (the typical Reformed elder).

Now, I believe that the baby-sprinklers and the faith-healers each believe in certain heresies: but that does not make them genuine heretics in my judgment. To me, a full-blown heretic is one who has utterly abandoned the foundational truths of Scripture, in favor of his own mad whims. Most Calvinists and charismatics aren't that far gone. I have brothers in each group who are, false modesty aside, far better Christians than I; and I will rip out my tongue by its tender young roots before I will call them "heretics." But, sitting at the table with my dear brother Keith the Charismatic, I will say, plainly, "Brother Keith, you're talking heresy."

This is a fine, fine line I'm treading, and if it is invisible to some, I'm not surprised.

My reservations about the atheist/agnostic examples are simple: what if the man or woman never believed in God to begin with? He or she cannot be said to have "apostasized." They haven't "fallen away" from anything.

(In my previous post, I said that this was my position before I was saved. I must retract that statement, or amend it, lest I grieve the Holy Spirit. It is conceivable that I was saved at 11 or 12. I believe that I was saved exactly one month before my 20th birthday; but there's a real possibility that I first believed as an adolescent. If I did, then I was an apostate [although saved] throughout my teenaged years.)

I would think that all Cults and Religions that profess to believe in God (or a god) Mormons, JW's, etc,; Islam, Baha'i, etc.; are not technically "atheist", since they profess to believe in "god", I would classify them under the title of unbelievers or non-believers.

That's good enough (or bad enough): we needn't be more precise in our taxonomy than the Scriptures. God divides mankind into three groups: the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God (1 Cor. 10:32). Mormons and Bahais and atheists and Democrats are Gentiles, unless born Jewish. We're the church of God, by His grace.

In my own day-to-day thinking, of course, I just think, like my old Presbyterian pastor, in terms of Christians and pagans. That gives me more than enough to think about!

God bless you, brother. Thank you for helping to sharpen my all-too-often dull iron.

Originally Posted by BrianT

If the non-Trinitarian on this board wants to expose himself, he will. He knows who he is, and he knows that I know who he is, but I will not rise up as his accuser for the purposes of causing yet even more antagonism and schism on this board. In fact, I'm thinking I may even bid you all farewell just to allow this board to be more peaceful. I have endeavored to not be antagonistic to anyone in all of my postings here, and yet my postings seem to cause some people to get quite upset. I guess I understand why, but I wish we all could simply discuss things without all the negativity and personal attacks.

I was not asking you to name the non-Trinitarian, and in fact I commend you for not doing so. I also freely acknowledge the point that many genuine heretics prefer the KJB. But, in this forum, when we (too loosely, perhaps) refer to "Bible believers," we're referring to people who have submitted to the Book's absolute and final authority: charismatics and "black theology" people, while often using the KJB, have not truly done that. Am I "judging" them? No, I'm judging their beliefs, and quite cheerfully dismissing them - - - along with the fruits they produce.

As to your own choice of venue for your further reflections, it is a matter of small consequence to me. I wish you well, and expect to spend eternity with you. But I'm not interested in bandying words with you from now 'til then.

Originally Posted by MC1171611

Brian, the problem is that you disagree completely with our foundational belief in the King James Bible...

Yes, and worse---he has a forum which devotes a fair amount of space and time attempting to cast doubt on the inerrancy of our Bible. It's just... creepy.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by BrianT

Hi Forrest, Harley, George, Here Am I, Vendetta Ride, and others,

Numerous questions have been forth to me about what I believe, etc. These questions are off topic in my opinion, thus I do not want to respond to them in this thread...

God bless,
Brian

What we believe is never off topic.

YOUR CONDITION WITHOUT CHRIST

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:10).

Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one (Job 14:4).

What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? (Job 15:14).

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me (Psalm 51:5).

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (Romans 5:12).

CHRIST’S PROVISION FOR SIN

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16).

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time (1Timothy 2:3-6).

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:14-15).

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man (Hebrews 2:9).

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction (2 Peter 2:1).

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world (1 John 4:14).

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men (Titus 2:11).

HOW TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17).

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already [now], because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:18).

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him (John 3:36).

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life (John 5:24).

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst (John 6:35).

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:40).

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life (John 6:47).

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water (John 7:38).

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25-26).

I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness (John 12:46).

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43).

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek (Romans 1:16).

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus (Romans 3:26).

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5).

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (Romans 10:9).

YOU CAN BE SURE

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:11-13).

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand (John 10:28).

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1).

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory (Ephesians 1:13-14).

[George]

Aloha brother VR,

I thank you again for your response.

I don't mean to drag this thing out, and I'm not trying to play a semantical game here, but perhaps a little more " clarification" (on my part) is in order. If we were face to face, I'm sure that we would have already dispensed with the whole issue and moved on to other things. {Like: Perhaps a cup of coffee (for you) & a cup of tea (for me)}

I wrote:

"While a Heretick is someone who professes to believe in a particular religion or sect but who twists, or changes, or subtracts or adds to one or more (but not many) major tenants of that religion or sect."

To which you replied:

"Um, perhaps. Joseph Smith and the Popes are good examples:they claim to believe in the Biblical revelation, but then add their own accretions. However, I would hesitate to call Ian Paisley a "heretic" because he believes in TULIP and baby-sprinkling, nor would I call a charismatic a "heretic" for believing his own daffy conceits. Such people, I believe, are sincerely mistaken: some out of ignorance (a kid raised in a Foursquare Gospel church), some out of intellectual pride or stubbornness (the typical Reformed elder)."

I can see where I still didn't express myself quite clearly enough. So I will try once again: Biblically speaking - I believe that in order for a man to qualify as an heretick (in the Biblical sense [Acts 24:14] of the word), he must first have believed the "Truth of God" and embraced it; but he (at some point) ends up twisting, or changing, or subtracting, or adding to one or more major tenants (doctrines) of the Faith (but not many - not even a majority).

I believe that perhaps the best example of a true Biblical Heretick would be Simon (the former sorcerer -Acts 8:1-24). The Scriptures say about Simon: "Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done." [Acts 8:13 ] Now Simon was a "believer" - BUT, through covetousness, he desired "POWER", and thought he could "purchase" it (contrary to the word of God, i.e. true "doctrine") and Peter's condemnation of him was swift & harsh! Peter instantly "rejected" him:
Acts 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
To which Simon replied: "Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me." [Acts 8:24]

Peter never said that Simon lost his salvation, but he did condemn him and pronounced that he (Simon) was in a terribly bad fix. Why? Because his heart was not right! And why was that? Because he mistakenly "thought" (false doctrine) that he could "buy" the Gift of God. It would appear (from Acts 8:24) that after Peter's "first admonition", Simon truly repented of his sin. For me to comment past this would entail speculation on my part - which I try to avoid like the plague.

I believe that Hymenaeus and Alexander were also hereticks:
1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Please notice: #1. "which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander" These men were "putting away" (changing the truth?) "concerning faith". And #2. Paul "delivered" them "unto Satan" (rejected them), just like he commanded the Corinthian brethren to do with any man, who is called a brother, that is a fornicator, idolater, railer, drunkard, or extortioner:
1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1 Corinthians 5:9 Iwrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Which he commanded Titus to do with a "heretic" also. {Titus 3:10];

I also believe that Hymenaeus {2nd. mention} and Philetus were hereticks:
2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
These men were saying that the "resurrection" was already past! {A "heresy" - if there ever was one!}. Were they hereticks? I believe so. Were they also "false teachers? For sure!

I believe that Alexander the coppersmith (2nd. mention? - 1Timothy 1:20) was also a heretick:
2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

Notice: Any man, who is called a brother, that is a fornicator, idolater, railer, drunkard, or extortioner (all sins of the flesh) is to be rejected (1Corinthians 5:13)! The same goes for a heretick, although his sin has to do with believing in and following a "false way" i.e. a false doctrine (and possibly promulgating it amongst the brethren).

Heresy has to do with WORDS - False and perverse words that are destructive to the hearer; that eat away like a canker; and, as far as God is concerned, words which also subvert the heretick himself!

Whew! I said all that to say I don't believe the Joe Smith or the Popes "qualify" as true "heretics" since they never believed "the truth of God" in the first place. I would classify them as "False Profits" instead.

"Now, I believe that the baby-sprinklers and the faith-healers each believe in certain heresies: but that does not make them genuine heretics in my judgment. To me, a full-blown heretic is one who has utterly abandoned the foundational truths of Scripture, in favor of his own mad whims. Most Calvinists and charismatics aren't that far gone. I have brothers in each group who are, false modesty aside, far better Christians than I; and I will rip out my tongue by its tender young roots before I will call them "heretics." But, sitting at the table with my dear brother Keith the Charismatic, I will say, plainly, "Brother Keith, you're talking heresy."

"This is a fine, fine line I'm treading, and if it is invisible to some, I'm not surprised."

I believe most of what you said above, but your statement: "To me, a full-blown heretic is one who has utterly abandoned the foundational truths of Scripture, in favor of his own mad whims." has me puzzled, since it seems to me that that is a description (or definition) of an Apostate.

"My reservations about the atheist/agnostic examples are simple: what if the man or woman never believed in God to begin with? He or she cannot be said to have "apostasized." They haven't "fallen away" from anything."

I must have not made myself clear in regards to your statement above, because I tried to clarify (in my last Post) that I wasn't saying that Atheists or Agnostics were ever Apostates. What I tried to convey is that an Apostate often has a whole lot in common with Atheists and Agnostics.

I believe, like you, that true Atheists and Agnostics are not Apostates, since they never fell away from any thing.

Sorry for the long posts. Like I said before, if we had the opportunity (which I would truly relish) to meet face to face we would have "hashed this issue out" in less than an hour - either agreeing to disagree, or coming together in unity.

Originally Posted by George

I must have not made myself clear in regards to your statement above, because I tried to clarify (in my last Post) that I wasn't saying that Atheists or Agnostics were ever Apostates. What I tried to convey is that an Apostate often has a whole lot in common with Atheists and Agnostics.

I believe, like you, that true Atheists and Agnostics are not Apostates, since they never fell away from any thing.

Sorry for the long posts. Like I said before, if we had the opportunity (which I would truly relish) to meet face to face we would have "hashed this issue out" in less than an hour - either agreeing to disagree, or coming together in unity.

I see, now, what you meant about agnostics/atheists. And you are undoubtedly correct that we could hash this out in short order over a cup of tea - - - although I'd prefer Coca-Cola to either tea or coffee! Old habits die hard...

We don't really disagree on the main points. Whether we designate these people as heretics or apostates, we're to avoid their company, not wish them "godspeed," and, above all, not join their number!

God bless you, brother! How I enjoy and appreciate these exchanges!