[Renee]

Hi Connie,

I knew you would have researched this matter. You do well in research. I like culottes a lot. Here on Kauai it was hard to find them for the longest time. At least now we have progress and KMART, and WALMART, we even have homedepo and costco! I do appreciate your post even though I don't always agree with all of them. I realize we have no dominion over any christian's faith and that they answer to their own master.

May we always keep our hearts open to Our Lord's leading.

In Christ Love,
Irene

[Renee]

Aloha Jerry,

This is in reply to your above post (59) and sort of Lei-kjvonly post (55). My examples were not hypothetical.

When Our Lord gave us the farm we were so blessed. We had a place to live, and a way to supplement George's income. The family prayed, worked, played and ate together. We lived in the most beautiful spot in Hanalei and I was back on the land I was raised on.

I am glad that you used the word "perhaps". Perhaps women were not meant to do some of the work I did, I only see that God provided a way for me to be a helpmate. I could work on the farm and be with the children (six at the time) and not have to seek work away from home. Working on a farm can be a great blessing. It is a good way to train your children to be thankful for the things that God has created.

Jerry, if you have never seen anything grow from seed, take some time and plant a potted plant and put it on your window sill. Watch this plant grow and take root, watch it flower and then slowly watch it die, and you understand many of the wonderful lessons God teaches us in the Bible. I am closer to My Lord now that I am in the fading years of my life, I don't have to struggle and work so hard. Now that we have more time we can devote more time to Him.

In Christ Love,
Irene

[Beltfed_0331]

I have heard this argument a few times and what I know is that the Bible clearly indicates that a man should not wear what appears to be a womans and a woman should not wear that which pertains to a man. Pants is the big thing in question among christians because pants was always seen as something made for a man. I understand this. I also realize that there are many differences in a womans pair of pants and a mans. It is very noticable when I see boys wearing girls pants. For some reason this is supposed to be a fashion for awhile. Even though they are pants I think it is wrong for a man to wear girls pants, though one could say that pants are for men and they should be able to wear them. How about the fact that button-up shirts was only something that women wore at one time. It was a fashion designed for ladies and eventually mens shirts began to include buttons all the way up it. Given the argument that a women would be sinning against God if she wore pants, wouldnt a man be sinning if he wore a button up shirt? According to this philosophy then he would be. Men would say thats hogwash and a button up shirt does not make me look like a women.(sounds like what mkost women say about pants, right?) How about the argument that the smooth skin on a ladies face is a trait that men are looking for when they shave. God gave men hair on their face and removing the hair makes them take on the qualities of a woman. This is something the Bible says we should not do right?
These are things I have learned in discussing this topic and I feel that no matter male or female we are to emulate Christ and what he wants us to look like. Ask yourself, after learning about my dress would God want me to wear this garmet in showing others about Him? Realize a man can sin by putting on a tuxedo if he is doing it to gain glory for himself.
I personally say that I will do my best to represent Christ, even with my clothing and do my best not to try and offend anyone even though this is impossible.
God Blesses those who serve Him,

Flawed argument - if God meant all men to have beards, then all men would be able to grow beards, and that is clearly not the case.

[Beltfed_0331]

It is a flawed argument, simular as to the dress code many try to influence upon others. This belief of a beard is one of many muslims defending their belief in not shaving. God wants us to represent Him. Look presentable and try not to cause any one to use your clothing as an issue they might not want to serve Christ. According to Biblical standards, most clothing purchased would not be acceptable due to the weaving of seperate materials. The Law has been fulfiled, praise God, and we are not under the law. We still are representatives of Christ and we should live and dress as such. for worship a person do whatever it takes to dress appropriatly for worship. Our best available. I have prayed to God before because I wanted to be more presentable in working in ministries like junior church and sunday school. I was given some of the finest cloths I ever had through prayer and desire to worship with example. Now I look for others who have this desire and try to help. We have preachers graduating from our college and some do not have a decent suit. A suit is not neccesarry to do Gods will but now I look for chances to help them because they deserve to look apporpriatly for their position. Not standing behind ther pulpit but in the world we may not have the same conditions to need a suit. We should still look the part of a christian.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Beltfed_0331

for worship a person do whatever it takes to dress appropriatly for worship. Our best available.

I can't think of any Biblical charge to "dress our best" for worship. In fact, the Bible says "modest apparel" -- at least for women:

1 Timothy 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

Obviously "modest" refers to the clothes themselves (though of course we should all want women to care for their modesty as well). Maybe it's different for men, but I really don't think God cares at all about the "finest clothes," and for certain God doesn't want women to wear "costly array." I don't see any Biblical basis for being concerned about suits behind the pulpit. (Not that I have anything against suits -- I am more concerned with undue interest in "fine clothes.")

[Brother Tim]

I don't know if it is the same in other places but in our county, there used to be a dress code for jury members in a courtroom. Basically, it could have been described as "business attire" (which itself has lost meaning). When I had my first jury duty about 40 years ago, this was the rule. Recently I returned for (another attempt at*) jury duty. You would have thought that everyone was heading for the beach afterward and had already changed. Some looked like they had just fallen out of bed. I was the only one wearing a tie (and suit) other than the deputies, clerks, and lawyers. Very saddening. At least the judges still require the key individuals to be dressed appropriately for the seriousness of the setting.

Church is not court, but I am coming into the presence of God in worship. Does He not deserve at least as much respect as a merely human judge?

[JaeByrd]

In Hawaii where I was born and we spent our first 10 years of marriage "Business Attire" (what state and local officials wear) is an Aloha Shirt and maybe slacks. (Most likely clean jeans) For women it is a mumu.

I remember visiting a church in California the guest speaker was from the Philipines and wore a Barong.

Cultural variances of what "dressed up" means aside. Who are we putting on our "Sunday Best" for? God sees us the other 6 days of the week when we sit and read our Bible. When we sit down to eat and pray. When I'm cleaning house or working on the yard/garden and singing hymns. Why is outward adorning suddenly important when we gather with others to do the same things together?

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Church is not court, but I am coming into the presence of God in worship. Does He not deserve at least as much respect as a merely human judge?

God deserves more respect. But what does an earthly judge have to do with God?

1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

That's really what it comes down to. I'm all for clean dress -- I don't leave the house looking like I got out of bed. But I don't see that God makes an issue of whether or not I wear jeans or slacks, or a button shirt or a t-shirt.

I once heard a pastor offering a praise over the fact that a man in the church who could barely afford his rent was able to buy an $800 suit to wear during his church duties. Looking back on that, I think of two things: what of "modest apparel?" I don't think I could find a set of clothes in my home that costs so much. And what of priorities? Does God care to have us turn Church into a men's fashion show, or should such a man be encouraged to save his money or invest it wisely?

Anyway, I guess I have to say again that I don't have anything against suits or nice clothes. I do have something against emphasis being put on them. I am open to being corrected with Scripture, so if I am missing a commandment please show me. (Priestly Mosaic robes separating the priesthood from everyone else don't count -- certainly business attire doesn't separate a Christian man from the world).

[Brother Tim]

I will agree that it is a cultural thing or upbringing rather than Scriptural. I do not publicly criticize those who come to church wearing something that I would not. I do my best not to let it bother me on the inside, but sometimes it does.

I think that evidence is available that often churches that practice very casual attire in the Sunday services also practice casual behavior when it comes to separation from the world in other areas.