Originally Posted by Diligent

Earlier in this thread (before you joined the forum, I think), I asked someone to explain this verse:

Romans 14:21-22 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Now, if any time the Bible says "wine" in a permissive sense it is meant "grape juice," what is it that Paul is trying to teach here? If wine doesn't mean wine in this verse, what exactly is the offense?

Since Paul is our apostle, I consider what he says first (2Ti 2:7) before I try to understand other passages, such as the ones you have quoted. Paul seems to have a very permissive attitude about wine compared to you (we've already gone over the specific verses and why they mean wine, i.e. "much wine" and "drunkenness", earlier in the thread). So I have to "interpret" the Old Testament verses you quote in the light of Paul's teaching on the matter.

Anyhoo, Romans 14 seems to be the "prevailing authority" here since he directly addresses the issue of consuming wine when it may offend another. (Surely grape juice is not offensive!?) So as long as a brother is obedient to Paul's clear command, what business is it of yours to tell him, to mandate, that he abstain from all alcohol?

It was Paul who wrote to the young Timothy that "all Scripture is given by inspiration... that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto every good work." Paul, in another epistle wrote that he did not receive his doctrine from men, but from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

That said, since it was the Holy Spirit that inspired man to write that we are not to even look upon the wine in its fermented state, we must compare that with that which Paul received of the Lord and wrote in Romans 14:21,22.

Since Scripture clearly tells us to abstain in Proverbs 23, Paul would not tell us differently in Romans 14. So, what then is Paul saying? Certainly not to go against that which God has already given to man!

Romans 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Does not alcohol make people weak? Paul was clearly declaring one should abstain in this passage, for it does indeed cause many to stumble.

Paul was just agreeing with that same statement written in Proverbs 23, that one is not to look upon fermented drink for it causes great woes and sorrow.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Born Crucified

Paul was just agreeing with that same statement written in Proverbs 23, that one is not to look upon fermented drink for it causes great woes and sorrow.

I think this is the first time I've seen someone argue that Romans 22 means we have to abstain from everything, everywhere, that might offend someone. Do you eat beef? Are you aware of how many billions of people find that offensive? -- and I'm not talking about vegetarians. Suddenly, you've turned a passage that tells us to consider the weaker brethren among us when we do things around them into a passage that puts us into bondage to any and all "dos and don'ts" religions.

Originally Posted by Diligent

I think this is the first time I've seen someone argue that Romans 22 means we have to abstain from everything, everywhere, that might offend someone. Do you eat beef? Are you aware of how many billions of people find that offensive? -- and I'm not talking about vegetarians. Suddenly, you've turned a passage that tells us to consider the weaker brethren among us when we do things around them into a passage that puts us into bondage to any and all "dos and don'ts" religions.

I have not ate beef in several years. There are much healthier meats that God has given.

I am not turning Romans 14:22 into a list of dos and don'ts... God has already given them in His Word. I was not the one who wrote Romans, nor am I the one who wrote Proverbs.

Either both are in agreement with each other, or God's Word is a lie. And I know God cannot lie, so they must be in agreement with each other.

That being the case, since Proverbs 23 gives a clear command to abstain, Romans 14 must agree with that.

Does it even occur that the wine Paul was speaking of was not an alcoholic wine, but the same wine that he prescribed to Timothy for his stomach's sake? That wine was not alcoholic in content. Alcohol wreaks havoc on an already infirmed stomach.

Some people cannot stand the smell of grape juice. Some get sick at the smell of it. It would be offensive to them if you were drinking it in their presence.

Paul cetainly would not have told us to drink alcohol in light of the clear command to abstain in more than one place in Proverbs. Proverbs 31 declares that it is not for kings to drink wine. Are we not kings and priests? According to the Bible software you design and sell, we are. Then it is not for us to drink wine.

Fermented wine is a poison. God's Word clearly calls it that. Alcohol is an intoxicant. It is called an intoxicant for a reason. It is toxic to the human body. God does not condone the consumption of alcohol in the life of His children... not in the least.

[George]

Originally Posted by Diligent

I think this is the first time I've seen someone argue that Romans 22 means we have to abstain from everything, everywhere, that might offend someone. Do you eat beef? Are you aware of how many billions of people find that offensive? -- and I'm not talking about vegetarians. Suddenly, you've turned a passage that tells us to consider the weaker brethren among us when we do things around them into a passage that puts us into bondage to any and all "dos and don'ts" religions.

Aloha Brandon,

BC is intent on "changing", "adding", and "subtracting" from the Scriptures whenever he comes to a place in them that he cannot "rightly divide", and so he "HARMONIZES" them to fit his "preconception of what they (the Scriptures) should "mean" (according to his limited discernment and understanding) and not what they clearly say..

He is a teetotaler (and so am I - and you) - and so every one else MUST be like him, regardless of what the Scriptures may say. Notice his "private interpretation in his recent statement:

"That being the case, since Proverbs 23 gives a clear command to abstain, Romans 14 must agree with that."

Here we have a clear example of someone ADDING TO the Holy words of God! Take the word "abstain" and look it up in SwordSearcher and see if you can find it (even once) in the Book of Proverbs. I can tell you already what I found: The word "ABSTAIN" IS NOT USED ONCE, IN THE ENTIRE BOOK OF PROVERBS!

Read the entire Chapter of Proverbs 23 - No where's in the entire Chapter is there a clear "command" to "abstain" (Notice BC wasn't "specific" - Which verse or verses? Why not QUOTE them?).

Now, do you think (for a moment) that BC is going to "apologize" to us for ADDING to God's word? Do you think (for a moment) that he is going to "apologize" to God for ADDING to His Holy word? Do you think that BC will repent of adding to; subtracting from; or twisting and wresting God's word to make it "fit" his private interpretations?

It's a waste of time dealing with a Sophist! Once I discern that a man (or woman) is a Sophist - I leave off dealing with them, for there is "no profit" in it. [Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.]

BC has a strong conviction about the use of "alcoholic beverages" - good for him (and so do you and I, and I believe Chette also), but what BC can not do is: he cannot hold that conviction without "shoving it down" other Christians throats! And therein lies a "problem" with many Christians today - once they come to a conviction about some "thing", every one else MUST believe and accept that conviction. And if not, they get upset, and start throwing a "tantrum" - slinging false accusations, malicious suppositions, and divisive comments, without any thought for those young Christians that are here on the Forum - wondering: What in the world is going on?

What is going on is, a carnal Christian ["For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" 1 Corinthians 3:3] is trying to "force" every one to believe what he believes; and if they don't, he is going to make sure that we all know how "godly" he is for observing and holding to his "convictions", and how all of us who may disagree with him are not only terribly wrong, but are actually "advocating" that it's OK for Christians to drink and/or get drunk. Which is something none of us has said or even intimated!

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

For those who may be interested the following verses are all of the verses in Proverbs 23 pertaining to wine (alcoholic) and the drinking thereof:

Proverbs 23:19 Hear thou, my son, and be wise, and guide thine heart in the way.
20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:
21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

{The verses are clearly talking about EXCESS - NOT "a clear command to abstain". BC is twisting the word of God out of context and is guilty of adding to it!}

Proverbs 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

{"tarry long at the wine" - is clearly in reference to EXCESS, NOT "a clear command to abstain". Now if BC said we shouldn't "mix" alcoholic "beverages", he would at least have a leg to stand on. }

31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

{Where is the reference to "a clear command to abstain"? In the context it is (again) talking about "EXCESS"! It's in reference to a "drunkard" (P.C. = "Alcoholic") who is "hooked on booze"; who refuses to set his heart on stopping the "excess"; and who will: "seek it yet again"! - Or as psychobabble teaches: "I just can't help myself"!) }

I am a "teetotaler". I have not been drunk since 1958 (the year I got saved). I have not had a drink of any kind of alcohol since 1963 {when I embraced a personal conviction about the use of alcohol}. I do not drink any kind of alcohol for all of the reasons listed in the Bible about "excess"; but, I have even a stronger reason for not "imbibing" - and that is, I don't want to cause any brother (or sister) in Christ to "stumble" at my liberty".

On the other hand, I am not going to berate, or browbeat, or "condemn", a fellow Christian brother (or sister), if they were to have a glass of wine with their meals (as they do in much of Europe, South America, etc.) - {where it may not be safe to drink the water}. If they take it to "excess", then that's another matter altogether!

It's amazing, to me, the lengths that some Christians will go to, to try to force other Christians to believe and observe their "personal convictions" and "private interpretations"; and on the other hand have no fear, when it comes to adding to; subtracting from; or twisting and wresting the words of God out of context!

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Whenever I encounter someone who causes "divisions" and "offenses": I withdraw myself from them - Pronto! That's what I have done, since I joined this Forum, and that is what I will continue to do until I die, or until my Lord returns.

It is not I who has a problem rightly dividing. Proverbs 23 clearly forbids looking upon wine when it is fermented. Nowhere in that passage is there a drink one or two clause.

News flash, George...

Look thou not the Hebrew word ra'ah. It is translated as don't experience... which means abstain. it is translated as consider not which means abstain. It is translated don't approve of which means abstain.

Shall I go on? the command Look thou not means abstain.

It clearly states not to drink it when it is fermented, not when you, not after you, but when it is...

It is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes to drink strong drink. Again, we are said to be kings according to the Word of God. it is not for us to drink lest we forget the law and pervert judgment.

Clearly God did not allow His Children to partake of alcoholic beverages.

There is no way one can say God approves of children of His drinking intoxicants by those two passages alone... unless they twist them to say drink some and then stop.

But twisting them to say it is ok to drink does nothing to change God's Words. he says look thou not when it is... not after you.

Rightly divide the Word of Truth? I have.

[chette777]

BC,

God did allow his people, servants or whatever you want to label them, to drink strong drink and wine (not new wine only)


Deuteronomy 14:22-27 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

you were wrong in saying God never allowed it. not only that it was to be given to sick and dying people also.

Originally Posted by chette777

BC,

God did allow his people, servants or whatever you want to label them, to drink strong drink and wine (not new wine only)


Deuteronomy 14:22-27 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

you were wrong in saying God never allowed it. not only that it was to be given to sick and dying people also.

When one rightly divides the Word of Truth, one realizes that the wine God allowed was not alcoholic in content.

Deuteronomy 29:6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I [am] the LORD your God.

So did they drink wine or not? Scripture says they did:

Deuteronomy 32:14 Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.

You might say, "That says they drank grape juice, not wine" Does it?

Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and [one] saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing [is] in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

Clearly God tells us that wine is in the grape cluster here.

Proverbs 3:10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

Wine in the presses? Freshly pressed juice in the winepress called wine? That is what the Word of God declares.

Quite obvious that there are two different classes of wine in the Word of God... fermented and non fermented. When one learns to understand context, one will see that the wine God gave the Israelites the go-ahead to buy in Deuteronomy 14 was not alcoholic in content.

God clearly calls alcoholic beverages poison. He clearly commands His children to abstain from that kind of beverage.

[chette777]

oh boy your taking verses out of context again. first we have no record of anyone ever using the Duet 14 provision. but it is there so God allowed it.

the context of Duet 29 was dring the wilderness travels. the provision of Duet 14 was for when they had already entered the land. written beforehand by Moses for them once inthe land. Don't mix the contexts as if they were the same. a little poison mixed in the glass with sugar and water will taste sweet but in the end it still kills.

as far as new wine. I have no argument with that fresh squeezed juice of the grape is called new wine. all grape juice kept in any container more than 30 days will ferment, the Jews had that during the times when there were no grapes. often the alcohol content was minimal and would not be considered strong drink.

George is right you want everyone to be like you so you force scriptures together to form your doctrine but you are not considering the contexts, your'e just mixing verses. seventh day adventist and JW's do that all the time.

a little poison mixed in the glass with sugar and water will taste sweet but in the end it still kills.
Exactly! And since God's Word calls fermented wine the poison of dragons, why do you and others defend it so passionately?

as to the statement that all fresh grape juice kept in a container for more than 30 days will ferment, I have grape juice in my refrigerator that I squeezed myself in July of 2007 and it has not fermented in the least.

Every time I put it in the freezer, it freezes solid. Alcohol will not freeze in conventional home freezers.

What I have proves that preservation of wine in its non fermented state is possible... just as it was possible 2000 years ago.

History records non fermented wines that kept for years.