[Debau]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

If the Received Text and King James Bible are true, then the only proper path is to stop reading the modern versions based on the alexandrian mss.

That is a rigid path Steve. That is the path the Lord has given us. Amen! I will just say that I believe folks are missing out on good typology teaching to learn of the attributes of God. He is a Holy God. He wants us to know the difference between the holy and the unholy.

"And that ye may put a difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean." Lev 10:10

That takes a willingness to come under the authority of God's words. Truth is not subjective. Folks want to pick and choose what they want to hear. Dr. Fuller admonished folks to have a conviction, not a preference. Anything other than a conviction for the rigid path becomes subjective. Choosing the unholy Alexandrian false text translations is a wayward path, no matter the intentions of the reader.
The false text and its progeny is "strange fire" indeed. Lev 10:1

Originally Posted by jerry

There is a big difference between having enough of the Bible unchanged to bring someone to salvation, and having enough changed that they will not be able to learn God's will for them each day. There is more at stake than just getting saved - we are also to live daily by the Word of God. If it is corrupted, it will affect my daily walk.

Which is why we have the Holy Ghost. The Lord will direct your steps. The Comforter will teach you all things. There's a war going on, but textual purity is small compare to it.

I have no idea why you keep quoting this verse in reference to modern Bible versions - unless you are trying to imply that those who take a stand solely on the KJV are hypocrites (which I believe is an unjust accusation - there certainly will be some hypocrites in whatever side someone takes on the issue, but that doesn't make all on one side hypocrites).

Well, guess I will just leave you alone. If you want to take another stab it, re-read the posts where I'd mentioned the plates and cups. Enough explanation is in there. Insult was not intended. I don't have the time anymore.

[Debau]

Originally Posted by jerry
There is a big difference between having enough of the Bible unchanged to bring someone to salvation, and having enough changed that they will not be able to learn God's will for them each day. There is more at stake than just getting saved - we are also to live daily by the Word of God. If it is corrupted, it will affect my daily walk.

Originally Posted by MDOC

Which is why we have the Holy Ghost. . The Comforter will teach you all things. There's a war going on, but textual purity is small compare to it.

Which brings us as to what is your final authority. It is not God's words. You cannot have good doctrine without accurate words no matter how you try to reconcile the dichotomy ("The Lord will direct your steps" -"but textual purity is small compare to it").

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

There's a war going on

The battle IS for the words, ever since he declared "Yea, hath God said"!
.

Originally Posted by MDOC

Which is why we have the Holy Ghost. The Lord will direct your steps. The Comforter will teach you all things.

The Holy Spirit leads and directs according to the Word of God - that is what He brings back to remembrance, not just some general ideas or generic spiritual principles.

Well, guess I will just leave you alone. If you want to take another stab it, re-read the posts where I'd mentioned the plates and cups. Enough explanation is in there. Insult was not intended. I don't have the time anymore.

Sorry if my asking for your clarification is bothersome to you. I did not know what you were referring to - and the context of Matthew 23 does not fit this discussion as far as I can see. I was not insulted, just not sure what you were stating directly or indirectly.

[Gord]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

And if you want about 180 missing links, to start, Brandon has a "magic marker" page.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Thanks Steve for pointing me in this direction, and Thanks Brandon for compiling the info in an easy to SEE and UNDERSTAND format. I have truly been blessed with a new understanding of how I personally was NOT giving the written word of God the same reverent respect and awe that I was giving God himself. The two are same. I still have a lot to learn but thanks to all for the blessing of this insight. It is beginning to make sense.

[Debau]

Gord,
If you want to watch some video instruction to help you out:

Dr. D.A. Waite
www.biblefortoday.org/idx_videos_wayside_bc.htm

maybe start with number 6, then work your way from the top down.

Also a good basic walk through in 4 - 45min. sessions is Paul Freeman on 1 dvd.

send $6.00 to:

Paul Freeman
3040 S. 6th Street
Terre haute, IN 47802
(812)-238-1830

Both these men have excellent articles on Brandon's site (under articles)

[Gord]

Thank you, I was just reading Dr. Waite on another site.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Gord

Thanks Steve for pointing me in this direction, and Thanks Brandon for compiling the info in an easy to SEE and UNDERSTAND format. I have truly been blessed with a new understanding of how I personally was NOT giving the written word of God the same reverent respect and awe that I was giving God himself. The two are same. I still have a lot to learn but thanks to all for the blessing of this insight. It is beginning to make sense.

Most welcome, Gord. It is a blessing to share information with a brother who is actually listening, thinking, seeking.

And Brandon really did an incredible job with the Magic Marker page. Not only is it accurate and true, he took the extra effort to make it comprehensible and clear and attractive.

Brandon, I did a study on the Peshitta confluence to the KJB/TR vs the alex texts simply using your Magic Marker page along with our English KJB and the Peshtta English translation, and I posted the results on the Textualcriticism forum. Quite interesting. That is how I know you have about 180 references there, and I may have a suggested addition or two.

Shalom,
Steven

[George]

Originally Posted by Gord

Thanks Steve for pointing me in this direction, and Thanks Brandon for compiling the info in an easy to SEE and UNDERSTAND format. I have truly been blessed with a new understanding of how I personally was NOT giving the written word of God the same reverent respect and awe that I was giving God himself. The two are same. I still have a lot to learn but thanks to all for the blessing of this insight. It is beginning to make sense.

Aloha brother,

The following "letter" is a short overview of the "Which Bible?" issue. I have tried to include all of the areas of concern without going into each individual issue in depth. If you take the time to read this "letter" you will see that this issue is far more complex than we have time or space to address here on this Forum. I encourage you to do your own study and prayerfully ask God to reveal the truth to you.

I am writing this letter to you in the hope that you are the kind of person who, before making up your mind on an important issue, tries to make an honest effort to carefully examine all sides of that issue.

For Christians the issue of "Which Bible" is the Word of God should be very important to you. You should want to know if the Bible you are reading and studying can be trusted as the TRUE Revelation of God and if you can rely on It to be free from all error. I would think that a truly sincere person would want to know if any Bible can be trusted to be the TRUE WORD OF GOD.

The issue of "Which Bible", if any, constitutes the Word of God is a very controversial subject. Personal Bias and Prejudice are very difficult to set aside, especially when a person’s religion or personal belief is involved. However, I believe that the TRUTH can always stand an open inquiry and that no one should be afraid to have their beliefs examined unless they are unsure of what they believe.

I first became acquainted with this controversial subject (Which Bible?) in 1968, and from 1968 up to the present day I have spent thousands of hours in study and research through more than 60 books and many booklets and pamphlets; plus hundreds of audio tapes. This issue is not only very controversial it is also extremely confusing since the subject of the History of the Transmission of the Text of the Bible cannot be taught in the “Public” i.e. Government Schools, and is not taught in most of the churches in the United States today. Ignorance may be ‘bliss’ for some people, but I would think that any thinking, reasonable person who is honest and sincere would want to know if there is in existence, and present in the world today, a physical copy (a Book you can hold in your hands) of God’s Revelation to man. I would also think that it would be good to know if that Book (the Bible) is Pure, Holy and without any admixture of error.

God expects Christians to examine issues and to judge them according to His words recorded in the Scriptures {John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.} For a Christian, ALL the issues of life are to be judged in the light of God's word! In examining the issue of "Which Bible", Christians cannot abandon God’s word and base their decision only on Humanistic “science”, “theories”, “scholarship”, or other Christians' “opinions” - {including mine}. Whatever claims are made and whatever hypotheses are put forth, it is the Christian’s duty and responsibility to carefully weigh all the evidence and to make a determination that honors God and His word.

If you are unfamiliar with the Bible; If you do not know much about Church History; If you have never studied the History of the Transmission of the Text of the Bible; If you are not familiar with the so‑called “science” of Textual Criticism; If you have never examined, weighed and carefully investigated New Testament Manuscript evidence; and If you have never made a comparative study of Bible Translations, you may be a target for misinformation, propaganda, deception and lies. Be extra Careful about what you accept as TRUTH! Take the time to “Check Out” every thing you hear or read. And make sure of the PEOPLE (teachers, professors, friends, relatives and loved ones) and the INSTITUTIONS (schools, colleges, universities “Christian” or not, churches, fellowships etc.) that you put your trust in.


Let’s clear the air of any misconceptions that may cloud this issue. The following FACTS are significant and irrefutable:

1. ALL of the ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS to the Bible are LOST!
2. The Major Battle over which WORDS “belong” in the Bible has taken place in the New Testament Text. (As opposed to the Old Testament)
3. The Major Battle over which MANUSCRIPTS are to be “trusted” has taken place over the known New Testament Manuscripts. (As opposed to the known Old Testament Manuscripts)
4. From 100 A.D. to 1611 A.D. There were fewer than ten (10) Bible Translations in English. (Partial or complete)
5. From A.D. 1611 ‑ first printing of the AUTHORIZED VERSION [A.V.] (Now known as The King James Bible) - until 1881 a few new translations were made, usually by individuals unhappy with the A.V. 1611, and without any success.
6.From 1881 to the present day ‑ NEARLY ONE (1) NEW ENGLISH TRANSLATION PER YEAR has come off the presses, again without much lasting success.
7.Nearly all the “new” Translations are based on just a FEW, A VERY FEW, MANUSCRIPTS: (Vaticanus & Sinaiticus ‑ Primary “Authorities”)
8. The many GREEK TEXTS for the “new” Translations are different from the GREEK TEXT of the A.V. 1611 in over 5000 places!
9. ALL the GREEK TEXTS for the “new” Translations are derived from and modeled after the Westcott and Hort GREEK TEXT.
10. The vast majority of the “Textual Critics” and “Biblical Scholars” subscribe, at least in part, to the complex Westcott and Hort Textual “THEORY”.
11. Most of the “critics” and “scholars” embrace Griesbach’s elaborate Manuscript FAMILIES “HYPOTHESIS”.
12. Most of the “new” Translations DIFFER from the A.V. 1611 in as many as 5000 places in the New Testament alone!
13. ALL The “new” Translations are ALIKE, that is they RESEMBLE EACH OTHER in contrast to the A.V. 1611, King James Bible.
14. ALL the “new” Translations have been made in a period of time marked by DISBELIEF, DISOBEDIENCE and APOSTASY.
15. ALL the “new” Translations have a COPYRIGHT.


Please note that up to this point I have not made any claims of any sort. Neither have I presented any charges or made any accusations against anyone. So far I have presented some of the known “FACTS” having to do with this issue. (“Facts” that can easily be verified through a little bit of research and study.)

Here are some FACTS about the King James Bible (A.V. 1611) you may not have known:

1.The A.V. (King James Bible) was translated near the beginning of the Reformation.

2. The A.V. (King James Bible) was the 7th complete translation of the Bible to be made in English from the beginning of the Reformation.

3.The A.V. (King James Bible) was translated by over 50 men divided into three groups: The Westminster Group; The Oxford Group; and The Cambridge Group.

4. Many of the translators, their families and friends had personally endured hardship and persecution for their personal beliefs.

5. The high caliber and qualifications of these truly scholarly men has NEVER been matched by ANY group of translators since.

6. The A.V. (King James Bible) was translated after nearly 1000 YEARS of Spiritual DARKNESS, and at the dawning of a Spiritual AWAKENING.

7. Except for the PRIVATE “Reference” and “Study” materials found in some King James Bibles. There is NO Copyright on a King James Bible (A.V.).

8. The A.V. (King James Bible) has been called, by believers and non‑believers, the most beautiful piece of English literature in the entire world.

9. The A.V. (King James Bible) has reigned supreme over ALL the other Bibles ever printed for over 395 years.

10. The A.V. (KING JAMES BIBLE) IS THE MOST POPULAR BOOK IN THE WORLD. THERE HAVE BEEN MORE A.V.’S (KING JAMES BIBLES) PRINTED THAN ANY OTHER Book or Bible in existence.


A careful review of the Bible on the subject of It’s Own Authority reveals that the Bible should be the Sole Source of AUTHORITY on all matters of faith and practice for the Christian. With the exception of God Himself, a Christian should place nothing above the Bible nor should the Bible be put in subjection to the Christian’s own culture, prejudices and biases. No church; no group; no “fellowship”; no ecclesiastical organization; no government; no school or university; no man or movement should be placed above the Bible.

When approaching the subject of which Bible constitutes God’s Word it is very important that we do not allow our own prejudices to “color” the issue. We should not be asking: Which Bible do we “prefer”? or which Bible is “EASIER” for me to read?, or which Bible do my friends like?, or which Bible does my Bible School or Church recommend?. Instead we should be asking: Which Bible does God Prefer? Or Which Bible has God obviously blessed the use of? Or Which Bible does God witness to? Or Which Bible does God want us to use? Or Which Bible did God PRESERVE? Choosing the Bible that you are going to use should not be based on anyone’s personal taste, likes, preferences etc., the choosing should be done after a thorough study of the facts.

In choosing “Which Bible” be careful of assumptions and suppositions. The Bible, by Its own claim, is no ordinary book and anyone studying any of the various subjects involved in this issue must keep in mind that there is a Spiritual Dimension, [the Devil does exist], to this issue that must be taken into account in every area of study.

In Psalms 12:6&7 (In the A.V.) God says; “His WORDS are PURE WORDS.” and that He, that is God, is going to “PRESERVE HIS WORDS FOREVER!”
The Lord Jesus Christ said; that the “SAME WORDS” that He spoke nearly 2000 years ago are going to be used to JUDGE the world and mankind. (John. 12:48) The Lord also said that Heaven and Earth will pass away but, His "WORDS shall not pass away.” There are many more verses showing that God’s Word has been preserved, but I don’t have the space to repeat them here. However, we have to ask ourselves: Is God a man that He should lie? (Numbers 23:19)

It should be noted that “The Bible” was known as the Authorized Version from 1611 A.D. until the early 1900’s when the Publishers of the “new” bibles changed the name of “The Bible” from The Authorized Version to The King James Version .......... trying to make it look like the King of England was responsible for It’s creation. About the same time, 1901 (ASV), these Publishers (they are in the business of SELLING “NEW” BOOKS $$$$$$$$) dropped the “Forward to the Reader” from the Translators of the A.V., and yet they print page after page of the forwards to the “new” bibles. (Does this mean anything to you? Does it make you wonder at all?)

In your study of which Bible constitutes God’s Word you should seek the answers to many questions some of which are:

Do we have God’s WORDS today? ‑ Just exactly as He would want us to have them?

Where does one find the WORDS of God today?

Does God require all Christians to be “experts” in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin?

Can today’s Christian TRUST modern “Christian scholarship” to provide us with a Holy Bible? Or even honest answers to questions about the History, the Manuscripts, the Text or the Transmission of the Bible?

Did God go to all the trouble of Inspiring “All Scripture” (II Timothy 3:16) and then just leave His Words alone to the luckless winds and shifting sands of time?

Are the WORDS in the King James Bible "Inspired" - or is "Inspiration" of God's WORDS limited to the "Original Autographs"?


In order to cover the subject of “Which Bible” more completely certain Warnings, Claims and Charges must be made (All of which can be substantiated and demonstrated) ‑ I would encourage the reader to carefully check out any and all of the following:

ALL the “new’ Translations low‑rate, play‑down or omit references to the DIETY of the Lord Jesus Christ.

ALL the “new” Translations slander, omit, or change the WORDS of God.

ALL the “new” Translations are much harder to MEMORIZE.

ALL the “new” Translations attack the GODHEAD i.e. THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT AS BEING ONE, by omitting and changing references to IT.

ALL the “new” Translations attack the VIRGIN BIRTH by omitting or changing references to it.

ALL the “new” Translations are the result of modern, unbelieving, humanistic so‑called “scientific” scholarship.

WHY do the Translators and Scholars avoid identifying the “older”, “better”, or “more ancient” manuscripts that they cite when they change the WORDS of God?

HOW can the “new” Translations be God’s HOLY WORD when they differ with the A.V. (King James Bible) in up to 5000 places (In the New Testament alone? If the “new” Translations are God’s HOLY WORD what does that make the A.V. (King James Bible)?

WHY do ALL the “new’ Translations compare themselves to the A.V. (King James Bible), instead of each other?

WHY do most of the “textual critics” and “bible scholars” continually attack and downgrade the A.V. (King James Bible) in their classrooms? In their schools?, In their papers?, and in their books?

WHY have ALL the major Bible publishers stopped printing the forward (not the dedicatory) to the A.V. King James Bible?

As you can see this issue is complex, controversial and confusing. To help you get at the “FACTS” you will find a list of books enclosed with this letter. The “FACTS” are very hard to find unless you read some of the not so well‑known “unpopular” Authors:

IN THE PAST:
John W. Burgon, Edward Miller, F. H. Scrivener, Herman Hoskier, Bishop Wordsworth, Canon Cook, Sir Robert Anderson, Philip Mauro, Joseph C. Philpot, George Sayles Bishop, Benjamin C. Wilkinson, Robert Dick Wilson and Edward F. Hills.

PRESENT DAY:
J.J Ray, Terence H. Brown, Henry Coray, Zane C. Hodges, Alfred Martin, David Otis Fuller, Peter S. Ruckman, David Fountain, Gordon P. Gardiner, Wilbur N. Pickering, Donald T. Clarke, Bruce Cummins, Dick Cimino, Barry Burton, Perry F. Rockwood, , Billy Bartlett, Larry Bartlett Herbert Noe, William P. Grady, Thomas Holland, Floyd Nolan Jones, Lawrence M. Vance, Kent Brandenburg, Douglas T. Stauffer, and Michael Maynard. {I personally recommend "Forever Settled" by Dr. Jack Moorman as an excellent "first book" - if you have never studied this issue in depth.}

Every one of the men cited above (and there are more) have defended the Word of God (Mostly in English - Some in Hebrew & Greek) or are still defending It starting from the 1880’s up to the present day.

You can’t find these books in bookstores, major publishers will not print these men’s works, and “Christian” newspapers, magazines etc. won’t advertise these books - But you can find most of them on the "net". “Christian” radio and T.V. programs won’t have these men on the air. Most modern Bible “scholars” and “critics” either haven’t heard of these men or their books, or they just choose to ignore what they have to say.

In this world the truth is sometimes difficult to find, especially when you are dealing with the WORDS of God. I hope this letter will challenge you to dig deeper into this controversial subject. The books in the following list cover the following subjects:

1. The Question: Which Bible?
2. The Internal Evidence: What Does God Say?
3. Old Testament History of the Text.
4. New Testament History of the Text.
5. The History of the Transmission of the Text of the Bible in the Church Age.
6.The Manuscript Evidence.
7.A Comparison of Versions.

If you don’t have the time to read all of the books on the list, I hope that you will try to read a broad representative sampling of them. Don’t be deceived; don’t be complacent; and whatever you do don’t take anyone’s opinion, including any that you may find in this letter, for granted. Examine the issues, search out the truth, and sift the facts. Read the “other side” also. There are numerous books on the market that are on the opposite side of this issue ‑ check them out.

Should you need any other information or if you have any questions I would be happy to assist you in your search for the Truth. In these evil days God is looking for men who will be “Valiant for the Truth” - not like God’s people in Jeremiah. 9:1‑5.


Yours for the Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy Word,

George Anderson

Romans 3:4 . . . . .yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written . . . . .

[Gord]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

and I posted the results on the Textualcriticism forum. Quite interesting. That is how I know you have about 180 references there, and I may have a suggested addition or two.

Shalom,
Steven

Steven could you provide a link please.