[atlas]

George,

Sorry it took me a while to get back to you on the Greg Estep issue. I had to read all of what you wrote on the issue before I could reply.

Let me start by saying I will take by faith the tapes said what you claim they said. I believe you are an honest man and will take your word for what he says. I do not think you would misquote or missrepresent Dr. Estep on this issue,

That being said I think I will have to agree on most of what you said. He was off base on this issue, way off base. That dose not make him a non Bible believer. That makes him a false teacher on this issue. I believe Dr. Estep is a saved God called preacher. I have listened to him for years. He like Dr. Ruckman have their problems. He is also very good on most issues. On this one issue I think we should avoid this teaching at all cost. I think many may have been lead astray by Dr. Estep on this issue just as many had been lead astray by Dr. Ruckman on the when life begins issue. I do see both of these as big issues. Unlike others I will not defend a man who is very clearly wrong on a big issue like this. Nor will I attack you for bringing out this issue. I'm glad you brought this to our attention. I think it will help us avoid this false teaching.

In the 1980's Greg Estep, and his perverted teaching of: "The Doctrine of Submission", was responsible for the breakup of a Bible believing church started by three other men and myself. His unbiblical teachings divided Christian brethren, friends, and family for over 20 years now.

I do believe I should address this issue one more time. I think this is also a very important issue.

If your church split, families will not talk with each other, fellow Christians will not have fellowship with each other just because of this issue. I do not think Dr. Estep is to blame for these problems. I think carnal Christians are to blame over this lack of fellowship. Part of my own family are members of an old style independent Wesleyan Church. I do have fellowship with them. I attend Christmas and other family functions with them when I am home in North Carolina and can attend family functions. They are members of my family and I love them. I even have fellowship with my wife's Jewish family members and we agree on very little. They are now my family. I stand my ground, but I treat them with kindness and respect. They also treat me well.

So any members of a family that will not even talk to members of their family over an issue such as this has a sin problem not a Dr. Greg Estep problem. Maybe some of the " Christian brethren, friends, and family " need to repent get right with God and each other. As opposed to laying the blame on Dr. Estep. If you want any scripture on this issue let me know? I'll be glad to post it.




Atlas

[George]

Originally Posted by aussiemama

"I would like to know what kind of "submission doctrine" Bro Estep is preaching. Some of the stuff that looks like it was on the tapes (hard to know since it is just quotes pulled from them) looks like stuff I would agree with. I would like to know more about exactly what this doctrine teaches."

Aloha aussiemama,

In answer to your question, the following is just a portion of my critique of Greg Estep and the so-called "Doctrine of Submission":

"THE DOCTRINE OF SUBMISSION"
(“THE KEY TO PEACE AND HAPPINESS”)
By Greg Estep

The following are selected quotes from a 4 tape (Audio) series called the “Doctrine of Submission”, promoted and taught by Greg Estep, former pastor of Charity Baptist Church and the President Emeritus of Charity Baptist Bible Institute and Seminary. {The entire lesson was taught (and enthusiastically accepted) at a local Baptist church on Kauai years ago}. I also have a more complete transcription of Mr. Estep’s teachings (35 pages). Page numbers are from our treatise: A Scriptural Examination of the Doctrine of Submission (52 Pages).

All CAPITALS, Underlines, Boldface, etc. are mine for emphasis
Standard Type Face = Introduction to topics
Italics = Quotes by Greg Estep from Tapes
Standard Type Face (Red) = Scripture Quotes (A.V. – KJB)


The following statements of belief are the result of embracing the so-called “Doctrine of Submission”:

PLEASE ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS:

DO YOU BELIEVE AND/OR SUBSCRIBE TO THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT (Made by a local Baptist church which subscribes to Greg Estep’s teachings): “the one and only head and shepherd of the local church is the God-called and Spirit-filled pastor, just as Jesus Christ is the Head and Chief Shepherd over the entire church;" (Bible Believers Baptist Church Constitution and By-Laws).

DO YOU BELIEVE: THAT A PASTOR (a mere man) IS “THE ONE AND ONLYHEAD OF THE LOCAL CHURCH JUST AS JESUS CHRIST IS THE HEAD AND CHIEF SHEPHERD OVER THE ENTIRE CHURCH?” YES ________ or NO ________

Does God have TWO CHURCHES? And does He have “multiple heads” (mini-popes) over the “LOCAL” CHURCH? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 1: At the beginning of Tape #1 Greg Estep states the “Doctrine of Submission” is “the most important doctrine in the Bible.”
DO YOU BELIEVE THE FOREGOING STATEMENT IS TRUE ________ or FALSE ________

Mr. Estep recommends two books that are the basis of his doctrine. 1: “The Tale of Three Kings” and 2: “Spiritual Authority”. Estep goes on to say that this is “The most important doctrine in the Christian life”.
SHOULD CHRISTIAN PREACHERS & TEACHERS BE BASING THEIR DOCTRINE ON BOOKS WRITTEN BY MERE MEN? {“alternate authorities”} YES ________ or NO ________

Shortly thereafter Mr. Estep makes a statement about belief: “We must take Him and use Him before He affects salvation in your life.”
DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT ESTEP WAS SAYING? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 2: In order to justify his three “classifications” of Christians matching Saul, David and Absalom (a “doctrine” taken from the book – “A Tale of Three Kings), Estep claims that: “there’s a difference in rebelling against the law of God like David, and rebelling against the authority of God like Saul. There is a difference – Saul overthrew the authority of God, David never did.
CAN YOU HONESTLY TELL THE “DIFFERENCE” BETWEEN KING SAUL’S AND KING DAVID’S SINS BY ESTEP’S EXPLANATION? YES ________ or NO _______

The Pharisees were guilty of overthrowing the authority of God! They had taken over!! And there was NO Forgiveness!”
WAS THERE “NO FOREGIVENESS” (according to Estep) FOR THE PHARASEES? YES ________ or NO ________
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

PAGES 2-3: Estep recounts the events after Paul’s conversion according to his own version: “Going down to an insignificant saint like Ananias and subjecting himself to the authority of that man. Who was Ananias? He was a peon man, a nobody! And Paul had been a somebody! He just had a somebody experience on the road to Damascus! And God said: “You go down there and you find that little saint Ananias and you let him baptize you.”
DO YOU AGREE WITH ESTEP’S ACCOUNT OF PAUL’S CONVERSION YES ________ or NO ________ DO YOU AGREE WITH ESTEP’S “TONE” OR “ATTITUDE” IN REGARDS TO ANANIAS? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 5: Estep states: “When Jesus Christ gave the example of submission and when He washed the Apostles feet, He told them - He said: Happy are you if you know these things and do them– do what? Be absolutely, totally in subjection! There He put Himself in subjection to the ones who were in subjection to Him!”
John 13: 12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
DID THE LORD JESUS CHRIST “PUT HIMSELF IN SUBJECTION TO THE ONES WHO WERE IN SUBJECTION TO HIM? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 7: Early on in the second tape Estep states: “Holiness is a work of worship.”
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT “HOLINESS IS A WORK”? YES ________ or NO ________

Page 10: Estep then goes on to comment on parent and child and husband and wife relationships and makes the following assertions: “Children that are disobedient to their parents are disobedient to God. Their problem is with God. Wives that are disobedient to their husbands just haven’t submitted to God Husbands that, husbands that are not – Hey Husbands that are not in subjection to the pastor that God’s given them, can you imagine a man, can you imagine a man trying to get his family to follow him when he’s all the time griping about the preacher.”
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ESTEP IS “RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF GOD”, WHEN MAKING THE FOREGOING COMPARISON’S YES ________ or NO ________

PAGES 10-11: Estep continues on: “If your pastor goes in the wrong direction then don’t, then don’t, jump on him. Just go to the Lord and say: Now Lord you led me to this church, and you, and I’m going to follow that man, and if that rascal takes us down to the Red Sea and we all drown I’m going to walk right behind him!”
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ESTEP IS GIVING SOUND SCRIPTURAL ADVICE ABOVE? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 12: Estep continues his remarks: “Hey, do you realize, look, do you realize the nature of God as is compared with the nature of us? How, how absolute opposite and contrary those 2 natures are? And yet He came down and took upon that nature and died for us, that we might have a nature like Him.” Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
DID THE LORD JESUS CHRIST REALLY TAKE ON OUR “NATURE” {Our Sinful “Nature”}? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 14: Estep then states: “God gave you a woman as a helpmeet. She meets your needs. A man doesn’t have tenderness. So God gave a woman so the child would have both righteousness and graciousness.” Ephesians 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.)
DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT (ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES) “A MAN DOESN’T HAVE TENDERNESS”? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 16: Estep continues in the same vein: “Are you afraid that ah, some of the men of the church are going to get together and fire you if you admonish them? Are you slack in your admonishing? I mean if there’s a problem in your church, what ah, you know what sometimes preachers the only thing they’ll do is they’ll go to God and say: God here’s a problem, oh God, You gotta work this- Hey! GOD’S NOT THE PASTOR OF THAT CHURCH! He’s put YOU down there so YOU could take care of it.” 1Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
DO YOU SUBSCRIBE TO WHAT ESTEP STATED ABOVE? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 17: Estep continues: “Now there are people that are gonna say well we’re not going to have a pastor until we can find someone who meets all of these qualifications. Well let me remind you of something: Paul said after being saved for 30-35 years ‘not as though I had already attained’. ‘I count not myself to have apprehended, but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are before, I press toward the mark’ . . . . Those are ideal qualifications, those are qualifications that a man should certainly be striving for and in general should be uh, characteristic of. But you’re not going to find a man today that’s going to meet every one of those qualifications exactly.”

1Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WE CAN DISMISS THE WORD “MUST” IN 1TIMOTHY 3:2 AND INSERT THE WORD “SHOULD” INSTEAD? YES ________ or NO ________
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ESTEP RIGHTLY DIVIDED THE WORD OF GOD WHEN HE TALKED ABOUT THE APOSTLE PAUL NOT ATTAINING? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 18: Estep continues on the same subject: “You just have to let God take care of that. If God says to you: ‘you go there’ – you go there. You may find that in one or two or three of these qualifications he may need some work. Why don’t you pray for him that be a blessing to him. And uh, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna argue with you about, uh, all what you think. The best thing to do is just get a hold of God in your life and find out what God thinks. If God thinks the man is good enough to be a pastor that ought to be good enough for you. If God’s established him, ordained him, you know a lot of people are worried about sometimes they’ll look at little peripheral things and they won’t see that people are getting saved; they won’t see that families are getting right; they won’t see missionaries getting supported. They see all of these little kinky things. I worry about people who won’t see the real things that are going on and they’re always cognizant of these little bitty things out here on the edge.”
HOW DOES ONE FIND OUT WHAT GOD “THINKS” – OUTSIDE OF SCRIPTURE? HMMM?
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD’S REQUIREMENTS FOR THE OFFICE OF BISHOP (elder/pastor) ARE “LITTLE PERIPHERAL THINGS” OR “LITTLE KINKY THINGS”? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGES 20 - 21: Estep continues with his comments: “Look! Jesus Christ is the Head of the Body of Jesus Christ. Right! Whether you call it a church, I don’t care what you call it. The Bible calls it a church in Ephesians 1:22.You can call it the church in prospect, you can call it the church in promise, prophecy, I don’t care! It doesn’t matter! Just get in it! OK? That’s all that really counts. But He is the Head of the Body; HE IS NOT THE HEAD OF THE LOCAL CHURCH.” (Ephesians 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.) Mr. Estep quotes part of 1 Timothy 3:4: ‘One that ruleth well his own house.’ “Jesus Christ is the Head of the body, the man is the head of his home, Well the, I contend even though that Bible doesn’t use the exact terminology - that the pastor is the head of the local body.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS NOT THE HEAD OF THE “LOCAL” CHURCH – BUT THE pastor IS? YES ________ or NO ________

DO YOU AGREE THAT” EVEN THOUGH THE BIBLE DOESN’T USE THE EXACT TERMINOLOGY”, THAT YOU CAN ADD TO IT AND MAKE IT SAY WHAT YOU WANT IT TO SAY” YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 22: Estep continues: “If the local body is a type and picture of the, of the spiritual body of Jesus Christ, the spiritual church. This is the local church that manifests that to the earth; like water baptism manifests the spiritual baptism; like our communion supper manifests or pictures our future supper with Jesus Christ and His past death. IT’S A TYPE!” 1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT: THE LOCAL BODY IS A “TYPE” AND “PICTURE” OF THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF JESUS CHRIST? YES ________ or NO ________
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A “SPIRITUAL BODY” (“SPIRITUALCHURCH”) AND A SEPARATE “LOCAL” CHURCH? YES ________ or NO ________
IS THERE SUCH A THING CALLED THE “SPIRITUAL BODY” OF JESUS CHRIST? YES ________ or NO ________ CAN YOU FIND IT IN THE SCRIPTURES? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 22: Estep continues with his comments: “I mean what, what, what could the world see of the church other than this body that gets together? We are the church. But we’re not all the church. There is a spiritual body that encompasses every believer and over that church we have one Pastor, one Bishop. We have the bishop of the church, the apostle of the church, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the Head of the church. but, for manifestations sake and for – since we deal with the physical realm and physical problems, and physical life; God makes a man the physical head and spiritual leader of the, and God makes a pastor the spirit – Look! He says that He’s the Chief Shepherd. That means, that tells me that a man who is an elder in 1 Peter Chapter 5 is an under-shepherd I’m not the Chief Shepherd. He’s the Chief Shepherd. BUT, I AM THE CHIEF SHEPHERD HERE!”
DO YOU BELIEVE IN AND SUBSCRIBE TO ALL THAT ESTEP SAID IN THE FOREGOING STATEMENT? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGES 22-23: Mr. Estep continues: “In a local church where God has given ME the AUTHORITY OVER THOSE PEOPLE, TO RULE THOSE PEOPLE, NOBODY ELSE! A man, a man is not a, no one else is to rule in your family but you. God has delegated that authority to you. Nobody else is to rule! How many heads are there in your family? How many heads are there on your body? How many heads should there be in this LOCAL body? How many heads are there in the spiritual body of Jesus Christ? There’s always one! Always one! You’ve got one Bible, one salvation, one plan of salvation, one Spirit, One Lord, One baptism, one faith, one hope, one calling. Why in God’s Name would you have two authorities then in a local church? It will not work! As, as soon as you have two authorities you have a split. It may not manifest itself for 4 or 5 years but it’s coming – unless one of the authorities backs down and usually that’s what happens to a pastor. He is pressured down and pressured down by committees or by congregational authority.Why would you allow anybody in your church to overthrow the authority of your pastor? You say: ‘well my pastor just isn’t leading right’. Then find you a pastor that you can follow! Get on your knees and say: ‘God is this where you want me?’ And if God says yes, you follow him wherever he goes!”
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT A pastor IS TO RULE OVER THE BODY OF CHRIST IN THE MANNER IN WHICH ESTEP DESCRIBED ABOVE? YES ________ or NO ________
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE TWO BODIES – A “LOCAL” BODY & A “SPIRITUAL” BODY? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 23: Estep continues on: “There is only two things you can follow: ‘Walk in the spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh’. God is checking you all out. Are you going to walk in the spirit? If the Spirit has anointed that man to be the pastor of that church, you just shut up, like you keep telling your wife – shut up and let me lead!”
IS THIS HOW A LOVING CHRISTIAN HUSBAND IS TO TREAT HIS WIFE - ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES? YES ________ or NO ________

Pages 23 & 24:Estep continues: “You just shut up and let him lead! Amen! Turn to John, I only got five more minutes. If there’s one, it isn’t so much the people that have overthrown the church; too many times the pastor has allowed it to happen. If a pastor just takes the authority and the power that God’s given him, and exercises it, God will work that out. God will get rid of – LOOK! In John Chapter 10, it’s 25, 26, 27. Doesn’t it say ‘I know my sheep’, I can’t remember, I’ve got so many things going through my mind. “Who’s that talking? That’s a shepherd talking. Now he knows all of the sheep, amen? And spiritually all of the sheep follow Him. I realize that there’s – well you say that sheep there isn’t following Him. Spiritually that sheep is following, but that sheep is walking in the flesh so the flesh is not following Him. When you look at a Christian, when a Christian sins, you’re not looking at a Christian that’s sinning; you’re looking at flesh that’s running the Christian. The Christian is really, truthfully the spiritual part of that man; who’s inside there saying: No, no, no, no, don’t take me. No, no, no, don’t take me, no.Right?He said‘my sheep hear my voice’. Preacher have you got people in your church that don’t hear your voice? They ain’t sheep!”
DO YOU BELIEVE: “That’s (just) A shepherd talking”, OR IS IT THE CHIEF SHEPHERD? HMMM?
DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT ESTEP IS TALKING ABOUT? YES ________ or NO ________
IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT ESTEP IS TRYING TO SAY - DO YOU AGREE WITH WHAT HE IS SAYING? YES ________ or NO ________

Page 24:Estep continues with his exposition: “There are two other kinds of things that can get involved in the church. Matthew 25 goats are contrasted with sheep and Matthew 7 wolves in sheep’s clothing. A sheep hears your voice and will follow.”
WHO’S VOICE DOES A SHEEP HEAR – THE pastor’s OR THE LORD JESUS CHRIST’S?
ARE YOU A “GOAT” IF YOU DON’T FOLLOW THE pastor? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGES 24-25: Estep is winding up his dissertation: “So if I’ve got those people in there, what are they really do after a time? They’re gonna be disgruntled, they’re gonna get bitter, they’re gonna be, be, be, become, beginning to defile others, and turning others against me. They will begin to devour the sheep. What should I do then? If I recognize somebody’s not a sheep, what should I do? I sure shump man, before they get to the sheep. If I let them stay there I’m destroying my own flock! You just have to do that. There’s Biblical precedent, I’ll tell you what, tomorrow we’ll through the, we’ll go through the, the, commands to a pastor, to a leader, on Biblical discipline and how to handle it in your church.”
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE “FLOCK” BELONGS TO THE pastor? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 26: Tape Four starts with Mr. Estep talking about the Bible account of Barnabas and Paul being called, separated, and sent out, which can be found in Acts 1: 1-7. He makes the statement: “The church and the Holy Spirit are one. When you get saved you get baptized in the Holy Spirit, every Christian got that.”
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE CHURCH AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE ONE? YES ________ or NO _______

PAGE 27: Estep continues: “Yes sir, we don’t have any direct line, you know some of us are charismatic and don’t know it. You know we think, we get on the charismatic’s for having visions. But we don’t do what the pastor tells us, you know we have our own authority! We’ve got a direct telephone line, you know, to God!
DO YOU HAVE A “DIRECT LINE” TO GOD? YES ________ or NO ________
OR MUST YOU GO THROUGH A pastor? YES ________ or NO ________
DO YOU HAVE AN AUTHORITY, OTHER THAN THE pastor? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 27:Estep continues – still scoffing: “You know He’s telling us everyday that your preacher is doing wrong even if he isn’t.” Mr. Estep gets serious again: “God would never by-pass your preacher! What would you do what would you think of God if He came to your wife and told your wife to disobey you? What would you think of the duplicity, the duplicity of that? Well do you think that God is going to tell a Christian to by-pass the authority of his own pastor?”
IS ESTEP “RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF GOD” HERE? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGES 31 & 32: Estep continues: “Oh my, I’m gonna finish up with what I told you I would do yesterday. Turn to 1 Corinthians 5- this business of discipline. As there is discipline in the home, there absolutely has to be and must be discipline in the church. This is what’s neglected in America. If a man is a good giver, the chances are he, he can get away with about anything in the average local church; or if he’s a deacon, or if he’s important, or if he’s been there before the pastor’s there. Let me encourage you to do this young men, if you haven’t already done it. If you’re not a pastor and God’s called you to pastor I would encourage you to really pray about starting your own church. All you’ll be doing in taking one 99% of the time is inherit some problems you don’t know are there and you don’t know how to handle.” Estep comments: “The voice of experience is sufficient. I have done both. I have taken a church and I have started one. And I have taught my men to start them. Brother Richards started one out in Montana. Brother, brother, uh, uh, brother Caldwell – he’s not out of my church, but brother Caldwell started one down there.It is, it is different, because you start small you know and you don’t have anybody, but you have the advantage that you were there before anybody else. And you write your own Constitution. And nobody can say, you know, that they’ve been a charter member longer than you. And you just, you just have it so much better really.”
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT A CHURCH’S CONSTITUTION AND BY LAWS SHOULD BE WRITTEN SOLELY BY THE pastor? YES ________ or NO ________

IF A CHURCH’S CONSTITUTION AND BY-LAWS CONTRADICT THE SCRIPTURES – WHICH SHOULD YOU FOLLOW - THE pastor; THE CONSTITUTION AND BY-LAWS; OR THE BIBLE?

PAGES 33 & 34: Estep continues: “Our church is ten years old. We just uh, uh, ordained our first deacon. Amen? De-can, some call him de-con. Uh, one deacon, and I waited for 2 years. He’s worked for us for two years. He’s on a salary. He does nothing but the physical labor around our church, and the buildings, and the grounds. That’s all he does. He doesn’t teach anything, he has no spiritual duties other than his own Christian life – He is a deacon. He does all the physical things just like Acts Chapter 6 says he’s to do. And he does everything I tell him to do. When he’s driving my car, I say slowdown he slows down. I say speed up he speeds up. He does everything I tell him to do. I wouldn’t have a deacon that did any thing less than that. Amen?”
DO AGREE WITH ESTEP ON HIS “PRIVATE INTERPRETATION” OF A DEACON’S DUTIES (In light of Philip and Stephen in the Book of Acts) YES ________ or NO ________

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT A DEACON IS TO SERVE THE PASTOR OR THE CHURCH?

PAGE 34: Estep states: “Okay. You say well boy you sound like you’re a dictator. Yes sir, I just about am, but you’ve got to realize that I’m also – the head of every man is Christ. I’m not, I’m not without authority. I have authority over men. Not only that, just to help you out, I’m a member of ShadyAcresBaptistChurch. Jack Woods is my pastor. I joined that church one night in camp meeting down there because I realized here I was trying to tell people they need to have some authority and I had none over me. So I joined ShadyAcresBaptistChurch cause he’s my pastor. When I need counseling, when I need help, I have a man to go to. Man I, I’m not going to be there isn’t anybody down here smart enough to figure this stuff out all by yourself. You say: Oh well, I’ve got the Bible and the Holy Spirit. Help yourself man. Help yourself. You’ll find God gives you men to help you. He don’t talk to you directly.”
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT A PASTOR IS SUPPOSED TO BE A DICTATOR? YES ________ or NO ________

BECAUSE YOU AREN’T “SMART ENOUGH TO FIGURE THIS STUFF OUT” – DO YOU GO TO A “MAN” TO FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOU? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 36: Estep continues on: “When you have a problem in your church and it’s beginning to affect other people like it was this, this, he said that the gentiles are talking about this thing. It’s commonly reported that there’s fornication – When it gets to the point where it’s out in the open, you must deal with it. I’ll tell you what preacher; if you got any sense you’ll deal with it before it ever gets out in the open. They had waited far too long to handle the problem. Amen? Alright, the power of discipline -Chapter 5 verse 4: 1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ – You have the power, the authority, the right to do it! People are (garbled word) say: well we don’t want to do the wrong thing. Ssshhhhh Shut up and do what God’s given you the power to do. If this man is, has done a wrong thing and people are talking about it – You need to handle it. You need to take care of it.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT A pastor HAS THE “RIGHT” AND THE “POWER” TO BOOT PEOPLE OUT OF A CHURCH (ON HIS OWN)? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 37:Estep proceeds: “The power of discipline; you have the power - do it! If somebody in your church is ah, gossiping; if somebody in your church is fornicating; if somebody in your church is drinking; you take, you handle it! You go to them! You have the power – Do it! People just hope and pray that it will go away. And usually by the time they get around to handling it, they no longer have to handle just one person, they have to handle a group of people” “who have been caught up in this man’s sin. What does sin do to a man? Sin blinds a man. And the works of the flesh are heresy. Uh, uh, uh the Bible said about a heretic – he’s subverted in he’s, in that he sinneth.” Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself “Heresy’s not the problem with a man when you deal with heresy.” “Its sin that caused the blindness that brought about the heresy. You don’t - Forget about the heresy, that’s just a little limb on the tree, you need to get to the root.”
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT HERESY IS NOT A PROBLEM – THAT IT’S “JUST A LITTLE LIMB ON THE TREE”? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 38:Estep continues: “And the root is some sin of disobedience. Somewhere in there he’s disobedient to God; disobedient to his pastor; or the woman is disobedient to her husband. Get to the root! Don’t fool with the branches! And don’t let it, don’t let it spoil other people. Don’t wait until its spread all throughout your church and the, you gotta draw the whole church in on it to get the thing straightened out. Cause it will be a rough ride for a while if you have to it that way.”
DO YOU BELIEVE (In the light of 1Corinthians Chapter 5) THAT A pastor HAS SOLE AUTHORITY TO “DISCIPLINE” IN THE CHURCH?

PAGE 38: Estep continues with his point: “It’s better, you just, you just, I’ll tell you what, I’ll tell you what God will do for you.” “If you promise God that you’ll handle problems when they come up, in a Biblical manner,”God will then begin to expose the problems early. If you tell God: God I want this church to be, to be your bri - a picture of your bride – clean, without spot, without wrinkle. If you’ll show me where the wrinkles are and you’ll show me where the spots are I’ll remove them.”
CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT IS “A BIBLICAL MANNER”?IS THE CHURCH A “PICTURE” OF THE BRIDE? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 39: Estep continues: “I’ll believe God - Listen! When a woman, when a woman committed adultery in the Old Testament how did God reveal it? There was a test; the spirit of jealousy would come upon that man and that man would take that woman down to the priest, wouldn’t he? Amen. Well that’s, it, you, that spirit will come upon you. He’ll let you know about things.”
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ESTEP IS “RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF GOD” ABOVE?
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ESTEP IS TAKING THE WORD OF GOD OUT OF CONTEXT ABOVE? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 40: Estep proceeds with his dissertation: “Some discipline will help the Individual, some discipline will help somebody else, but all discipline will help somebody. Sometime it won’t help the person you’re disciplining. Now look here in 1 Corinthians chapter 5. Get this, get this, get this – verse 7: ‘Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump. That’s the purpose – it’s for, it’s for you to be clean. Whether he ever gets right or not, you want the assembly, the people, the congregation to be clean. He said purge out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us. Look! Look preacher, if God didn’t stop at sacrificing his own precious Son for your good, why would you stop at sacrificing a fornicator for the church’s good?”
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT A pastor HAS THE POWER AND AUTHORITY TO “SACRIFICE” A SHEEP THAT HE PERCEIVES IS SINNING? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 40: Estep continues: “Some people just say – I just, I just don’t know how to go to them. It doesn’t matter wha, wha, you can go to them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and His power. ‘I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me’. 3 John: 9-11 If he’s told you to do it and given you the power to do it, you can do it. It’s like people telling you, you can’t I just don’t, I just can’t witness. Oh don’t tell me that, You can do what God gives you the power to do, and if God’s given you the authority in your home or the authority in your church, you have the power of discipline. “You can do it. Now I realize somebody else in your church can’t do it. God hasn’t invested the authority or power in them.”
DO YOU AGREE WITH ESTEP’S STATEMENT ABOVE? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 41: Estep finishes up his point: “Just like somebody’s not to discipline your children for you, that’s your power. That’s your authority. It’s important. It’s for the whole group and it will sometimes help the individual that you are disciplining.”
IS A pastor ONE OF THE BRETHREN, OR IS HE OUR “FATHER”?

PAGE 42: Estep proceeds: “The punishments, the punishments – Matthew 18. These are the orders of the punishments. Hi brother Jones. Yeah, amen brother. Matthew Chapter 18. I’m glad you said that brother Danny, not me. I live too close to him. There is a orderly fashion of Biblical discipline that God has given us. In Matthew 18 – some of you say well, uh, uh this is before the church begins. Yes, but its not before the local church begins. There are local churches clear back in the Old Testament.”
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT “THERE ARE LOCAL CHURCHES (Plural?) CLEAR BACK IN THE OLD TESTAMENT (Other than the ONE reference by Stephen in Acts Chapter 7)

PAGE 42: Estep continues: “Talks about Israel being the church in the wilderness. Any congregation of people gathered together for God’s purpose is a church; whether it’s in the Old Testament or the New Testament. It’s an assembly, assembling together. It may not be the body of Jesus Christ - the spiritual, baptized, sealed body – I understand all that. But we’re talking about the problems of a local independent bunch of physical folks. We ain’t got any problems spiritually. We’re all seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. We’re talking about the physical problems that come to a physical church and how to handle them.”
DO YOU AGREE WITH ESTEP’S ASSESSMENT (ABOVE) OF THE CHURCH? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 43: Estep proceeds:” at this point you’re no longer concerned about whether he gets right or not. from now on you’re concerned about everybody else, amen? the first, the first consideration is the individual, but if the individual doesn’t respond – scratch him! for even christ our sacrifice, our, our saviour, our substitute, our passover is sacrificed. sacrifice him! sacrifice him! it, you say well it’s a relative – sacrifice him!”
IS THIS A PROPER CHRISTIAN ATTITUDE? YES ________ or NO ________
DOES A pastor POSSESS THE POWER THAT ESTEP CLAIMS TO HAVE? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 44: Estep continues: “Did I ask my mother and father to leave my church brother Rick? My father disobeyed my authority in our church and I went to my dad, the hardest thing I ever had to do, and I said: Dad you have got to leave. Only I said: either you are going to pastor this church or I am. And right now I believe God put me here – it was the hardest thing I ever had to do brother Steve – but I did it! You say: how could you do that? I had the power to do it! He said: ‘I can do all things through Christ’. And everybody knows to my church – that’s my uncle sitting right there. That’s my uncle’s boy. If he did wrong in my church I went to him. If my uncle did wrong in my church I went to them. Why? Because my, my priority is, is, is to do what God has called me to do. I am to forsake father and mother; sister and brother; and follow Him. And if you can’t do that, your life is going to be a wilderness experience from here to heaven. I just recognize I can’t pastor everybody, when some folks will not follow me. It is better for them to find somebody else to follow, before they try to get a following.”
IS ESTEP “RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF GOD” IN THE ABOVE EXAMPLE? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 45: Estep continues: “Last of all or next of all, you withdraw fellowship. I, I’m out of time so I gotta just give you the verses – Romans 16:17. The last chapter of Romans and its strange how God sticks these things in obscure places; sometimes I wonder why He does that. ‘I beseech you brethren, mark them which cause divisions’ Do you have somebody who’s causing division in your church? You’re to mark them. You’re to mark them and you’re to avoid them. That’s what the verse says, in the Pauline Epistles, you know, between Acts and Hebrews, dispensationally rightly divided. It also says in 1 Corinthians Chapter 5 , Verse 11, the passage that we’re talking about here: ‘I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man be a brother, that is called a brother, be a fornicator, covetous,’ Ooh my – is he tithing? Listen! If I as the pastor have admonished a man to tithe, and for 5 or 10 years after he’s been in my church, he still isn’t tithing, is he my sheep? I just, I’ve got tithing records out in my car right now. I’m getting ready to look over what the folks brought in. If I find somebody in there, in there that just quit obeying, I’m going to go to them and find out why! ‘If a brother be overtaken in a fault’. You Know what I’ll - you say preacher – hey, hey, hey, hey. If that guy isn’t tithing now, you know what he’ll be doing in 2 years? He’ll be opposing me actively! Amen. Amen. Amen! Sure!”
IS “TITHING” A NEW TESTAMENT REQUIREMENT? YES ________ or NO ________
DOES A pastor HAVE POWER AND AUTHORITY OVER WHAT ANOTHER CHRISTIAN GIVES UNTO THE LORD? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 46: Estep Proceeds: “Like I told you, you go back slow and you go back easy. And you, and you pray about it and, and you just say OK Lord, I’m gonna let the peace of God rule. If there’s a problem, you know it won’t take long, that guy will probably come up to you and say: We just don’t think this is right now, and immediately you say: OK Lord I get the message. Say: Let’s you and I step down in my office and have a talk. Don’t! Let me give you a hint, don’t go to their home and talk to them.Cause you see he’s master of his home. You, you take him into that office, where you’re the master!” “You take him to that home boy and you’re outnumbered; wife and kids, their against ya. Yes sir. Amen. He’s been there. Ha, ha, ha, ha, amen.”
IS A PASTOR OF A CHURCH “THE MASTER” (IN LITE OF MATTHEW 23:8-10 AND OTHER VERSES)? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 46: Estep jumps: “I, I didn’t give you, I didn’t give you this, this submitting to the secular authority. I didn’t get around to it. I, Watchman Nee said a great thing. You obviously are all thinking about Daniel, who disobeyed Nebuchadnezzar; your thinking about the three Hebrew children who disobeyed, but you know what those 3 Hebrew children did? Daniel was in submission to the secular authorities. He was in submission, but on the issue of prayer he disobeyed. But he was still in submission. When they came to get him, he said: “I’ll go with you’.When they said: ‘into the Lion’s den?’ He walked into the Lion’s Den.” Daniel 6:16 Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast him into the den of lions. Now the king spake and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee. “See, he was in submission in general, but on that one specific issue, because it was a direct command of God, he disobeyed. That’s the only time, it’s the only exception. We want to make the exceptions the rule for us. Other than that – the powers that be are ordained of God and if you resist the power, you resist God. Thank you.”
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE “DISTINCTIONS” THAT ESTEP IS TRYING TO MAKE ABOVE? YES ________ or NO ________

PAGE 51: Estep proceeds: “Oh they pretend they know God, and love God and are Godly. But ah, it, the Spirit, the power of God, they’re, they’re Godly but they ah, rather they deny the power of God. You know what power is? That’s authority – and God gives power to the king; to the head of the home; to the head of the church; to you personally in the person of the Holy Spirit, to control your spirit. See, having a form of Godliness, but denying the power, that’s revolutionary. Anybody that overthrows the pastoral authority; headship of a home; ah, or the authority of the King is a, is absolutely, diametrically opposed to the word of God.” {END OF ALL FOUR TAPES - END OF LESSONS}

CONCLUSION

This is only approximately 15 pages out of a 50+ page critique that I did some years ago. Perhaps now, some of you can understand why I despise "respect of persons" amongst the brethren! It's now up to you to decide whether Greg Estep is a heretic or whether he is just "mistaken" in a few things.

The perverse belief that a saved sinner (“called”, “filled”, “anointed”, “spirit-led”) can take the place of the Lord Jesus Christ in His church ("that the one and only head and shepherd of the local church is the God-called and Spirit-filled pastor, just as Jesus Christ is the Head and Chief Shepherd over the entire church;") is the most damnable heresy that Satan has ever foisted on the Lord Jesus Christ’s church (especially so-called “Bible Believing” AV-KJB churches)!

The Holy Bible teaches: 2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.God has said that there shall be false teachers that shall bring in damnable heresies. The Bible also is real clear as to why our God allows heresies to crop up in the church. 1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you God allows heresies in the church to “prove” His people, that they might choose between good and evil. It’s entirely up to the church to judge those false teachers (heretics) and their heresies and deal with them according to the Holy Scriptures. Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

It is not enough for us to profess with the mouth that “we believe the Bible (AV-KJB) to be God’s word with out error and is our sole rule of faith and practice”. Sincere Bible believers must also obey those same Scriptures. We must endeavor with our whole heart, and soul, and mind, to study the Scriptures in order that we might learn, from the mouth of God, what is the mind of Christ and strive to be more like Him, not replace Him in His church.

True Spiritual knowledge, understanding, discernment, and wisdom are given to believers by God. No amount of schooling and matriculation in Bible “subjects” can ever replace what the Holy Spirit gives to the believer who has a humble and believing heart.

Satan’s sin was that he coveted God’s Glory and tried to replace The Lord and overthrow Him. When a man, any man, tries to “share” God’s Glory by usurping the Lord Jesus Christ’s Headship in the church (local or otherwise) he is attempting to overthrow the Lord and replace Him. When a man, any man, covets the Lord Jesus Christ’s rightful place in the church, he is guilty of trying to steal God’s Glory. Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

The notion that a saved man, a so-called Bible believer, can take the place of our Lord and Saviour in His church is blasphemous and abominable. The perverse heart that will accept and embrace such a perverted teaching is so blind that it doesn’t even know that it is utterly reprobate. Psalms 148:13 “Let them praise the name of the LORD: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.”

To God be the Glory forever! Amen.

Yours for the Lord Jesus Christ and His word,

George H. Anderson Jr.

I already read your article and couldn't make proper sense of it which is why I was asking for an explanation of what he believes rather than a repost of an article I didn't understand anyway.

[MC1171611]

Basically some people teach that the pastor is the head of the local church like Christ is the head of the Church, so we should be subject to the pastor like we are subject to Christ. This is unbiblical and ungodly.

The pastor is an undershepherd, but he is still a man with faults. We should respect the pastor, as he IS in authority, but only over the areas where God has put him. The pastor should never interfere in a home, or attempt to circumvent a man's authority over his wife or kids.

[George]

Originally Posted by aussiemama

I already read your article and couldn't make proper sense of it which is why I was asking for an explanation of what he believes rather than a repost of an article I didn't understand anyway.

Aloha Aussiemama,

What I posted is not just "a repost of an article" from my web site. I have three articles on my web site under the Subject Heading - "Christ's Church":

#1. "The Doctrine of Submission" - A Scriptural Examination Thereof {52 PAGES}

#2. "The Doctrine of Submission" - Quotes Without Comments {35 PAGES}

#3. "The Doctrine of Submission" -Selected Quotes {9 PAGES}

I posted part of my article (#3.) but with the addition of the questions (in blue). Since I don't know which of the three articles you read, I cannot respond to your rather curious comment.

However, if you cannot understand that the quotes (by Greg Estep - in "Italics") that I cite came from a four tape (audio) teaching series taught by Greg Estep , and are "his actual words" - stating what he believes in regards to "pastoral authority"; his concept of "the church"; and various other subjects, then I'm sorry - I have tried my best to convey (in his words - not mine) what the man believes..

A very good Christian friend of mine (Ed Burch) and I spent hundreds of hours accurately transcribing just part (the most corrupt parts) of the 4 tape audio series taught by Estep (and sold through his church).

You (and anyone else on this Forum) now have a choice of whether to believe that what we transcribed was accurate and true to "the original" or whether Ed Burch and I are Liars!

I am testifying to you (and anyone else), that we took great pains (and hundreds of hours) to accurately transcribe exactly what Greg Estep said on the tapes. Now, you can believe us, or you can choose not to believe us - it's your choice. However, you will notice, that in all three articles (essays) I never carelessly called him a "fundie pope" or an "idiot" (as you did David Cloud, with whom, I also strongly disagree with in many areas.)

I try real hard not to get into the "name calling" game, and instead, I try to accurately describe people whom I believe to be - Humanists; Sophists; False Teachers; False Prophets; False brethren; Heretics; Apostates; etc.; etc. with the actual word that accurately describes them, rather than childish "name calling".

By the testimony of the 4 tape series on "The Doctrine of Submission", Greg Estep (by his own words) has proven himself to be a "false teacher" and is clearly a "heretic". Whether he was instrumental in leading people to Christ; baptizing them; building a church; etc.; etc.; is besides the point (Billy Graham and Jack Van Impe were far more successful at winning souls and both are apostate).

Over a period of nearly three years (in the process of transcribing) I must have heard Estep's "Doctrine of Submission" at least 10 times, and not only is it "False Doctrine", it is some of the worst Bible "teaching" that I have heard in the 50 years that I have been saved. How good, godly, Bible believing Christians could have been taken in by this man, is beyond my comprehension. It must be "respect of persons" - because nothing else can explain why a genuine King James Bible believer would be fooled by this man or his followers - No, not for a minute!

For the record: I cannot think of a more pernicious and destructive doctrine than "THE DOCTRINE OF SUBMISSION" (taught by Greg Estep). Almost all other False Doctrines and Heresies "pale" in comparison, because this abominable "Doctrine" seeks to remove and displace the Lord Jesus Christ from His rightful place in HIS church; and put in HIS place a mere man (a sinner).

If you do not "see" this, if you cannot "understand" this, I'm afraid that there is nothing more that I can do to help you. However, my Bible is real clear as to what I am to do about Greg Estep and any of his "protege's" or "followers":

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and AVOID them.

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition REJECT;

And that's exactly what I intend to do!

[MC1171611]

Brother George,

I understand that this issue has affected you personally, but I must entreat you (as a father ) to see whether perhaps the damage Bro. Estep's teaching has caused you has made you at least seem a little bitter toward him. I'm not defending Bro. Estep in the least; I know his teachings on submission are unbiblical and problem-causing. However, that's not the only thing he taught. Bro. Estep was an amazing Bible teacher, and while he's wrong on this and other things, and obviously puts too much importance on irrelevant issues, it seems to me as if you're taking this a little too personally. Perhaps you and he cannot get along because of the trouble he has caused you in the past; if that's the case, then by all means do not vex yourself with his teachings. But I fear that whatever happened in your past with him is causing you to portray him very negatively to others.

My family left the church of a very prominent PBI graduate who is a missionary to a country in Southeast Asia. This man is extremely controlling in a manipulative, behind-the-scenes way, and it almost caused my younger brother to completely leave the family (he was 16 at the time!). My mother was an emotional wreck over the damage this man and his actions caused toward my father and our family. However, I don't think I would be right in exposing this man, because doing so would jeopardize a ministry that God has blessed, and affect a whole bunch of people and several churches in that country. The man is very wrong, sinful, and likely illegal by what he has done. But I don't have peace to expose him to the brethren.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't expose doctrine, but perhaps a reevaluation of your approach to Bro. Estep personally would be advisable. That is but a tiny portion of what Bro. Estep taught, and while it is a very wrong, and very destructive doctrine, he's hardly the first to teach it or act by it. A former pastor of a church my family attended was just as dogmatic about pastoral authority; he'd never heard of Bro. Estep: he was a Hyles grad! Bro. Estep may be the loudest on teaching it, but he's far from the first one to do so.

God bless.

[George]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

Brother George,

I understand that this issue has affected you personally, but I must entreat you (as a father ) to see whether perhaps the damage Bro. Estep's teaching has caused you has made you at least seem a little bitter toward him. I'm not defending Bro. Estep in the least; I know his teachings on submission are unbiblical and problem-causing. However, that's not the only thing he taught. Bro. Estep was an amazing Bible teacher, and while he's wrong on this and other things, and obviously puts too much importance on irrelevant issues, it seems to me as if you're taking this a little too personally. Perhaps you and he cannot get along because of the trouble he has caused you in the past; if that's the case, then by all means do not vex yourself with his teachings. But I fear that whatever happened in your past with him is causing you to portray him very negatively to others.. {"VERY NEGATIVELY"? - Where can I find that in the Bible?}

My family left the church of a very prominent PBI graduate who is a missionary to a country in Southeast Asia. This man is extremely controlling in a manipulative, behind-the-scenes way, and it almost caused my younger brother to completely leave the family (he was 16 at the time!). My mother was an emotional wreck over the damage this man and his actions caused toward my father and our family. However, I don't think I would be right in exposing this man, because doing so would jeopardize a ministry that God has blessed, and affect a whole bunch of people and several churches in that country. The man is very wrong, sinful, and likely illegal by what he has done. But I don't have peace to expose him to the brethren. {Ah yes - "PEACE" & "UNITY" - That's what's important! NOT THE TRUTH!}

I'm not saying that you shouldn't expose doctrine, but perhaps a reevaluation of your approach to Bro. Estep personally would be advisable. That is but a TINY PORTION of what Bro. Estep taught, and while it is a very wrong, and very destructive doctrine, he's hardly the first to teach it or act by it. A former pastor of a church my family attended was just as dogmatic about pastoral authority; he'd never heard of Bro. Estep: he was a Hyles grad! Bro. Estep may be the loudest on teaching it, but he's far from the first one to do so. God bless.
{"That is but a TINY PORTION of what Bro. Estep taught, and while it is a very wrong, and very destructive doctrine, he's hardly the first to teach it or act by it. And that makes it RIGHT?}

Aloha MC1171611,

So, according to your thinking: "A LITTLE LEAVEN doesn't really LEAVEN the whole lump" - is that it? Spare me the Humanistic Psychologizing! You don't know me from Adam - You can't possibly know what is in my heart - so don't even go there!

In the face of the Biblical teaching:

Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and BEWARE of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matthew 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. {The Religious "leaders"}

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of bread, but of the of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

Luke 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

Galatians 5:9 A LITTLE LEAVEN leaveneth the whole lump.

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a LITTLE LEAVEN leaveneth the whole lump?
7: PURGE OUT therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Your "Logic" is based in Humanism - NOT the Scriptures! The Pharisees were "in Moses' seat"; they taught a whole lot of sound doctrine; they lived exemplary lives (and were proud of it!); they followed the Law (outwardly); and yet the Lord was much tougher on those religious leaders than he was on cussing fishermen; adulterous women; publicans; wine bibbers; etc.

Give me a break! Your "advise" is contrary to everything that the Lord Jesus Christ (and the Apostle Paul) taught! Ask yourself - where does this kind of "thinking" come from? All of these mini-popes should be exposed for what they are - USURPERS! PRETENDERS! THIEVES & ROBBERS! DESTROYERS OF CHURCHES! DESTROYERS OF CHRISTIAN'S FAITH!

Your advise reeks of "respect of persons" - So then: "let us do evil, that good may come"? {That is: compromise on the commandments concerning just a little leaven, because, after all, these men have done so much "good"; they have won so many people to the Lord; they have built "successful" churches; God has used them; etc,; etc.} Ah yes, that reminds me of another person who was a real KING - not a PRETENDER!

You know the story about King Saul - he had all the "right" motives but he was disobedient to the Lord's command - and he lost his Kingdom for his disobedience!
1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Now let me get this straight: Are you "recommending" that we "ignore" God's commandment given in His Holy word concerning "a little leaven", because we should "respect" Estep (or any other so-called man of God); or that we should respect his work on behalf of God (or any other so-called man of God)? Hmmm?

In the face of:
1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a LITTLE LEAVEN leaveneth the whole lump?
7: PURGE OUT therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Are you "recommending" that we "ignore" God's commandment and "retain" the "old lump", so that we can remain "leavened" instead of "unleavened"? Hmmm? Know ye not that "your glorying is NOT good"?

You don't know my heart - you can't possibly know my heart, since only God knows the heart. I got over the bitterness years ago, but for 25 years I have seen the "FRUIT" of this teaching and there is only one way of dealing with it - and it's not "compromise"; or "ignoring" what God commands us to do when faced with it. We are to "PURGE OUT the old leaven" in order to remain "unleavened" (that is - without heresy or heretics!)

This is NOT "personal" with me - it is Scriptural! If you were to study church "history" {Schaff's, LaTourette's, Cunningham's, Ruckman's, Eardman's, etc.) you would know that "respect of persons" has been the bane and curse of Christianity from its inception. Almost all false doctrine and heresy and has been introduced by and through the "leaders" in the churches. We cannot, we must not, compromise on this issue. We cannot "excuse" false doctrine and heresy because we like the pastor; or because he is doing a work for God; or because he is winning people to the Lord; ETC.; ETC.

We MUST be obedient to God's word (first-last-& always) in spite of our "feelings", and expose false doctrine and heresy (along with the false teachers and heretics) no matter WHO may be teaching it, or promoting it!

Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

And now - "I am pure from the blood" of all those on this Forum {including yours}. Do what you will, as for me:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

[stephanos]

AMEN!!

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[Gord]

Thank you George, I hope some of this wisdom rubs off on some others around here with the 'stinking thinking' syndrom.

[MC1171611]

You're "past the bitterness" but write three times as much as I did in response, with ten times the vitriol? I'm not convinced, brother.

Differences in administrations. The church split because people allowed that teaching to become an issue; it was not Estep's fault. If a pastor isn't close enough to God to keep a problem-causer from coming in and splitting the church, then perhaps that man's walk with God should be questioned, and not just the doctrine that led to the problem.

You have no idea the pain and trouble this man caused us; I'd love to go around and expose him for what he is, but I'm NOT called to do that, regardless of what you think. MARK them, yes. But that doesn't mean I have to go around whining about what he did to my church! AVOID them, yes, but that doesn't entail writing dozens of pages of literature and wasting countless hours transcribing his messages just to fight against him.

It's apparent from your response to me that you're still very bitter about what happened. I approached you in a respectful manner, yet you bit back at me as if I had attacked you. Perhaps some self-examination is in order.