George you've been denouncing me from early on, from when I dared to believe God's word says something different about the head covering than you think it says. I'm out of order only because I'm a woman you happen to disagree with. You don't merely disagree, though, you have to denounce me personally, over and over and over. If I disagree with what you say and agree with what Matthew Henry says, I quote him and not you. I'm mostly trying to avoid you and not get run over by you, as opposed to denigrating you, George. If you were an elder in my own church I guess I'd have to shut up or leave the church.

I DO have a question whether I'm supposed to keep my mouth shut in company with an elder of another church who doesn't have authority over me and with whom I disagree. It doesn't make me happy. I don't like being in this position. I don't want to question your authority. I recognize you as a man of God of exemplary Christian life who is sincerely applying His word as you sincerely understand it.

But I do disagree with you, and I don't know how I am to handle that, especially when you go around denouncing me as a sophist. I'm not a humanist, I'm not a sophist, I'm right about the head covering and I'm right about the need for the Bible to be updated. Accepting your "instruction" would be nothing other than being forced to agree with you. I don't know what else I'm supposed to be "instructed" about.

I'll leave it to God to judge between the two of us.

Actually, I don't want a new translation; I'm already used to the old KJV.

I'm not thinking about what individuals need, though, MDOC, but what the church needs -- new converts in particular. I really think we need an updated KJB -- CAREFULLY updated, to preserve MOST (99.999%) of the old language, and change only what is essential to avoid misreadings and making modern people stumble over unfamiliar terms.

Originally Posted by Connie

GeI'm out of order only because I'm a woman you happen to disagree with. You don't merely disagree, though, you have to denounce me personally, over and over and over.

I DO have a question whether I'm supposed to keep my mouth shut in company with an elder of another church who doesn't have authority over me and with whom I disagree. It doesn't make me happy. I don't like being in this position. I don't want to question your authority.

Connie, that scripture about women keeping silence is only supposed to apply to married wives to their husbands. No such restriction as to silence is supposed to be imposed on women in any other way, except with respect to church order. Another factor is that women in Paul's time were relatively unlearned as to matters of the law, mostly because men were taught the law and not women in those days.

Originally Posted by Connie

I'm not thinking about what individuals need, though, MDOC, but what the church needs -- new converts in particular. I really think we need an updated KJB -- CAREFULLY updated, to preserve MOST (99.999%) of the old language, and change only what is essential to avoid misreadings and making modern people stumble over unfamiliar terms.

OK, no problem. I do have to be open to the possibility that the younger generation can and will ferret out the truth much as I've done. And the Holy Ghost will lead into all truth.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by MDOC

Joh 6:63
(63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Again showing it's the words that matter...

Originally Posted by Diligent

Again showing it's the words that matter...

Not just words, man. The spirit and the power of it by the Holy Ghost.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by MDOC

Not just words, man. The spirit and the power of it by the Holy Ghost.

Which come through the words! What is being ignored here is that the very words are the vessels for the "meaning, message," etc etc that is said to matter more than the words. It is sheer nonsense to say that the words are less important than the "message" or the "meaning." The words are how God chose to convey the message. In fact, we must care for the words, because the message is not always clear. We must have the exact words God used to give the meaning if we are to tell what the meaning is with surety. It is the words God promised to preserve. It is the words that we can count on to learn the meanings even when the translators did not understand the "message" they carried.

I agree new converts can cope with the King James as we do, MDOC, but I don't think they'll accept it under today's circumstances (and I'm thinking of TRUE converts, TRUE believers. If we all had spiritual perfection we wouldn't have any disagreements about anything).

I understand what you are saying about women's position, too, but I do take it very seriously as a matter of God's creation order and not just a matter of education. I've learned as much as I have learned over the years about the things of God mostly in self-defense because so many churches are misleading us in these last days. I had to get out of a liberal church, then a charismatic church, and then a church that teaches sound Biblical doctrine but with a worldly and intellectual tone rather than being Spirit-led (I have enough discernment to get free of that, but according to George I'm a humanist nonetheless).

Yes, I got what you quoted about it's not being the words but the spirit and life of the words.

I do believe that God put men over women but I don't believe that I'm to answer to all men, only proper authorities. I accept Paul as God-inspired so what he says doesn't just apply to his own culture but to all of us. I accept that I'm answerable to proper church authorities, but George hasn't been defined as an elder in the Church of AV1611 Forums. (And don't get me wrong, I think George and his wife Renee are admirable people and admirable Christians. I even like them as people -- in spite of his dogging my case). I accept that I'm not to teach men, no matter how much I know, but I don't see that a forum like this puts me in the position of teacher since anyone can accept or reject what I say. I'm also working on starting a blog of my own, which I'm hoping doesn't put me in that role either, and I don't see why it should. So as you can see, I do have questions about all this. I'm not sure how it's to be worked out in today's world.

What is being ignored here is that the very words are the vessels for the "meaning, message," etc etc that is said to matter more than the words. It is sheer nonsense to say that the words are less important than the "message" or the "meaning." The words are how God chose to convey the message. In fact, we must care for the words, because the message is not always clear.

It isn't being ignored, Diligent. I already answered it in post #48. The words ARE important, we DO need to take great care for them, and that is why we have to have the Bible updated from time to time, because over time they change their meaning and lose the ability to convey the message to new generations.

I put it this way in #48:

It's simply a FACT that different English words in different times convey different shades of the truth and sometimes entirely different meanings, a fact so many here seem unwilling to recognize. The simple passage of time changes the meaning of words and thus changes the meaning of GOD's word. It can't be helped. The words, the individual words, DO matter, they matter a GREAT deal, they have to be ACCURATE, they have to convey what God meant to be conveyed, and if the original English words have changed their meanings they HAVE to be updated so that we CAN have the true individual words that convey the true meaning God intended.

[Debau]

Originally Posted by MDOC

the Word has become the idol; the Word is worshipped instead of the creator who spoke it. That's why they are so bound to this kind of flakiness.

I just don't believe some of these folks are amenable to God's words. If some struggle with Elizabethan English, it is because they are lazy, or need a heart check. The call for an updated translation is nonsense. Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set!
I do not believe in Heavenly perfection of the King James Bible, but believe it is the closest we will ever have this side of Heaven. To say the word is worshiped over The Word is not to understand His words. There is only One that is perfect that deserves all praise and worship. Why did He magnify His word? For to worship Him!

What don't folks understand about:

It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Mat 4:4

"I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food." Job 23:12

"for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name" Psalm 138:2

I'll continue in my flakiness!

What of the words that some would trifle with?
The words make up the message. It is the words that are inspired.

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."Mat 24:35

"As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever." Is 59:21

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth shall pass, one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Mat 5:18

The King James Bible as is is an accurate faithful translation that will never be surpassed.