[Biblestudent]

Brother Chette,
I may have wrongly said Moses "returning", but I also said that Moses and Elijah are only two people mentioned in the context of Malachi's prophecy, and therefore "associated" with the Second Coming.
Brother George has some good points, and a good question would be: "Will the Jews ever listen to Enoch?"
I'm sure they would certainly listen to Moses.
Elijah, of course, will return.

[George]

Originally Posted by chette777

George,

I agree all men do not have to die. And I know all men don't die physically. as I stated we are already dead in Christ which fulfills that for us. though some of us may die before the rapture.

Now, while we have a clear scriptures that Elijah would come in the last days to prepare the ways for the Lord and Jesus said that it was John who was Elijah. and Mal 4:5 tells us Elijah's duty was to turn the hearts of the father to the children. it says nowhere there that Elijah would call down fire upon Jerusalem or do signs and wonders. And in all that the two witnesses do in Revelation no one is believing or fathers turning to their children that is indicated.

the one scripture Sammy used from Mal4:4 did not say anything about Moses coming in the last days as he said it did. It was speaking about remembering the law of Moses.

So where is the scriptures does is speak of Moses coming in the last days?

Now I think I may have been wrong in saying Moses and Ejiah did not have glorified bodies. I found these scriptures in Luke 9:30,31 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. that say both Moses and Elijah appeared in Glory. that would make them glorified would it not? What comes after the colon is added details concerning those before the colon who were and glory and spake, if I remember my English grammar correctly. but then again it says only that they appeared in glory not that they were glorified.

Anyway like I said my mind is not made up.

Aloha brother Chette,

It's a real pleasure discussing this issue with you (a pleasant change).

IF Moses and Elijah have "glorified" bodies like the kind of "glorified" bodies that we are going to receive at the "translation" of the body of Christ they will NOT be able to die; and so they could NOT be the "two witnesses".

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly .
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Now I don't profess to understand a whole lot about our "glorified" bodies, but there are some things that we can know for sure:

When the Lord Jesus Christ "appears" - "we shall all be changed"; we all are going to "be raised in incorruption"; we all are going to "put on incorruption"; as we all "have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly"; and we all "must put on immortality". In other words - "we shall be like Him"!

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

And just as the Lord Jesus Christ can NO LONGER DIE - we will no longer be subject to DEATH!

The Scriptures do not state that Moses and Elijah had "glorified" bodies when they met with the Lord Jesus Christ on the mount of "transfiguration". But there seems to be near unanimity that Elijah will be one of the "two witnesses", if that is the case (as I believe), then Elijah CAN NOT have a "glorified" body (such as the one that we are going to receive), because if he does, he is "immortal" and will not be able to die.

So - if it is possible that the one "witness" is Elijah, I see nothing that could "prevent" the second "witness" from being Moses. Whatever kind of "BODIES" they now possess, it seems pretty clear that they both "possess" the "SAME" kind of body.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

[Biblestudent]

Brother Chette and Brother George,
I may be alone in this way of thinking; but Moses and Elijah not having glorified bodies in the Tribulation period would pose no problem if we accept (as far as I am concerned) the following:

1. Only the members of the Church, which is the Body of Christ, will be resurrected and raptured.
2. The Old Testament saints, as well as the Twelve, will have their "FIRST RESURRECTION" in Revelation 20 (verses 4-6, "THIS IS the first resurrection").

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by whirlwind

Speculating? We have Moses, Elijah, Zerubbable, Enoch, etc., that fit the bill as the witnesses. Previously, as Moses and Elijah were named on the mount of Transfiguration, I thought, as you, that they were the "two" witnesses. However, I now understand them to be TYPES for the witnesses. Those that overcome, as they did, will be with Jesus. The witnesses are those that witness for Him now and at the end of this age.




I agree.....allow the Scriptures to answer.....

Ruth 4:11 And all the People that were in the gate, and the elders, said, "We are witnesses......

Isaiah 43:10-12 Ye are My witnesses." saith the LORD, :"and My Servant Whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no GOD formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are My witnesses," saith the LORD, that I am GOD.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even My witnesses. Is there a GOD beside Me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 10:41-43 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with Him after He rose from the dead. And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He Which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive the remission of sins."

1 Thessalonians 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

So you agree the witnesses are Moses and Elijah?

Grace and peace

Tony

[chette777]

George and Sammy,

well Jesus had a glorified body too in Luke's version of the Transfiguration. but that glory was short lived as it well could be for Elijah and Moses. Appeared in glory could be a place not just a state of being.

Interesting to note In Luke 3 in the genealogy of Jesus Enoch is mentioned also in Jude and in Hebrews. So these scripture is directly linking the Hebrew peoples to Enoch and Seth and then to Adam.

An interesting side note is that only the Jewish people can follow their genealogy back to Adam. Not one Gentile can follow his back to Jephath or Ham to Adam.

I am assuming here but the importance of Enoch to list him in genealogy of Christ, to mention him in the Hall of faith in Hebrews, and to list him in the Bible as a Prophet in Jude shows that God may consider him an important Character in the future as well of at present.

I have always been taught it was Moses and Elijah. the Scriptures that God would send a prophet like Moses was fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and that Elijah would pave the way of the Lord fulfilled in John the Baptist and verified by Jesus that he was indeed Elijah. doesn't mean they wont be but it also doesn't mean they will either.

God could use two totally different people and we could all be proven wrong. because God can use any Jew to be a witness if he is serving the Lord by faith.

I had thought that because in the Tribulation God is dealing with Israel mainly but he is also dealing with the Gentile Nations. who will also be afflicted by the plagues of the two witnesses. So I figured it wouldn't be to far fetched for God to use one Gentile witness (who is considered in line with the Lord-Enoch) and one Jewish witness this way the tribulation witness for what they are is witnessed to the whole world not just the Jews. the whole world is in the same boat Jew or Gentile when it comes to the Seven year Day of the LORD's wrath.

but that is just my idea not that it is correct

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by CKG

Note that Whirlwind asserts his superior knowledge to you.

“I thought, as you,………………… However, I now understand”.

He tells us to “allow the Scriptures to answer” then produces verses that have no relevance to the topic at hand.

He tells us to “allow the Scriptures to answer”, but denies the very words of Scripture.

Revelation 11
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

He then throws in smiley faces because he thinks its funny to mock the Word of God. I mentioned a while back about dealing with a young man who had gotten off into the "serpent seed" teaching. Whirlwind sounds just like him.

I appreciate you comments brother. You can't read the Bible for people Craig, and one thing I've learned over the mists of time is that the Jews are not the only people who are stubborn and stiffnecked.

Here is what amazes me:

Re 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

What is the significance of the "and" I highlighted? No one seems to argue that Elijah is the first Witness:

1Ki 17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

I'm not going to post 5 chapters from Exodus, look in Rev. 11:6 "and" we see that we are given twice the evidence that Moses is the Second Witness yet most people bury their head in the sand, all that down there is the "Gestalt" method of "interpretation" that was taught by that crazy TV evangelist Gene Scott back in the 80s. "Consider all alternatives". Yeah, Charley Manson made good use of Revelation, let's ask him.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

[chette777]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

I'm not going to post 5 chapters from Exodus, look in Rev. 11:6 "and" we see that we are given twice the evidence that Moses is the Second Witness yet most people bury their head in the sand, all that down there is the "Gestalt" method of "interpretation" that was taught by that crazy TV evangelist Gene Scott back in the 80s. "Consider all alternatives". Yeah, Charley Manson made good use of Revelation, let's ask him.

Tbones,

We know it describes similar miraculous events of turning water to blood but it still doesn't prove it is Moses. and it does not say what plagues they will smite the earth with. are you say it will be frogs and flies, lice and boils. and even if it is all of them. Rev11:6 does not prove that it is Moses. there are seven plagues poured out on the earth and they could be using those plagues to inflict upon the earth.

But remember Moses didn't do these things GOD DID through him. Ex 3:20 God Speaking, And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go. God can use anyone he chooses to perform those same plagues. It doesn't prove it is Moses.

The only reason people say it is Elijah is because they don't believe what Jesus Said that Elijah had come in the person of John. And because it says in Rev11:6 that the witness would stop the rain. It doesn't prove it is Elijah any more Rev11:6 proves it is Moses. just because the rains stop and water turns to blood and plagues doesn't prove it is either of these men. Because it is God doing it through the two not who the two men are.

I don't beleive it will be Elijah because the rains are stopped. I believe it was Elijah because he did not see death Just as I feel it will be Enoch.

But as George pointed out it doesn't mean that all men have to die once or at all. I do know this, I died in Christ and that is all that really matters.

But you constant putting down of others as "putting their heads in the sand. . . ", and saying they aren't studying scriptures out to see it your way is getting a little tiresome. I will not cut and paste all your jabs of your intellectual superiority and the putting down of others. As reading them once is enough. you are beginning to sound like a newly graduated College student who is out to tell everyone what it is or is not without regards for anyone's feeling. You are showing signs of disrespect which you seemed to be very respectful early on in your posts but lately I don't know what happened to you. I don't think there is any need of it and you should stop it before I loose what little respect I have left for you.

So I give you a challenge. Just one clear scripture is all i need that says without any adding to it or allogorizing, or spiritualizing that Moses will return in the LAST DAYS.

And these two do not count seeing they are speaking of Jesus Christ and were fulfilled completely in him.
De 18:15 ¶ The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
De 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

So you agree the witnesses are Moses and Elijah?

Grace and peace

Tony

Yes. Moses represents the law and Elijah the prophets. Together, the law and Word are the two witnesses to the world. Who delivers His law and His Word? The many witnesses and they are the olive trees and the candlesticks. They are His elect...they are those of.....

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

[George]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Brother Chette and Brother George,
I may be alone in this way of thinking; but Moses and Elijah not having glorified bodies in the Tribulation period would pose no problem if we accept (as far as I am concerned) the following:

1. Only the members of the Church, which is the Body of Christ, will be resurrected and raptured.
2. The Old Testament saints, as well as the Twelve, will have their "FIRST RESURRECTION" in Revelation 20 (verses 4-6, "THIS IS the first resurrection").

Aloha brother Sammy,

I'm with you 100%. If I said something to mislead you - I apologize.

My point in my Post #52 was simply IF Moses & Elijah have "glorified" bodies, they couldn't possibly be the "two witnesses" (since it would be impossible for them to die); but since the Scriptures do NOT SAY they have "glorified" bodies, then there is nothing preventing them from being the "two witnesses".

I believe between what brother Tony, CKG, peopleoftheway, yourself, and myself (the old curmudgeon), that we have presented a fairly solid Scriptural "case" for the "two witnesses" as being Moses & Elijah. (We can safely discard "whirlwinds" disjointed ramblings as being just that.)

As I have said before - I will not argue or debate over this issue and I refuse to belabor the point or make a "big deal" over it.

Brother Chette has been honest and above board about his not "being sure", and I for one am not going to try to REPLACE the Holy Spirit in trying to give brother Chette discernment and understanding in this matter.

I see my responsibility as putting out the Scriptures and instruction in facts about the Bible. It's the Holy Spirit's job to teach spiritual discernment, understanding, and wisdom! I can "point things out", but the Holy Spirit is the One Who witnesses to the "truth" and convinces us of the veracity of spiritual issues through the study of His Holy words.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by chette777

But as George pointed out it doesn't mean that all men have to die once or at all. I do know this, I died in Christ and that is all that really matters.

I really like that, Brother Chette. And I also delight, glory, and rejoice in the fact that "...a bright cloud [at the Mount of Transfiguration] overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." When they lifted their eyes, Moses (the Law) and Elias (the prophets) were gone "And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only."

I too died in Christ, and yes, HE is all that really matters. "No man save Jesus only!"