Prove? What's to prove. You are hiding behind "well, they weren't really saved in the first place". Since you hide behind that, how can anyone answer you since you've made it so they can't?

A true child of God can reject their salvation the same way a true husband or wife can reject their marriage vow (unless of course they weren't really married in the first place).

Prove a true child of God can't reject their salvation, then I will prove they can..

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

[Brother Tim]

A true child of God can reject their salvation the same way a true husband or wife can reject their marriage vow (unless of course they weren't really married in the first place).

I don't want to get too far off the subject, but this is exactly why the ideas about marriage/divorce/remarriage today are so wrong when compared to the Biblical teachings. Marriage is permanent in the eyes of God. That is why remarriage is forbidden in every case while the spouse is alive. That is why the modern versions mess it up so badly by changing the word "fornication" to something else.

Biblical marriage IS a perfect picture of salvation. The one exception that Jesus offered to marriage was when the evidence was revealed that the other partner had been secretly unfaithful PRIOR to the consummation of the marriage. (fornication, not adultery) The evidence came to light later. This would picture that person who comes to Christ without being completely open in repentance. There are many who "go through the motions" of salvation, but whose hearts are not changed, because they lack repentance. Simon the sorcerer is a prime Biblical example of the kind of person that we say "wasn't really saved in the first place". He WASN'T!

[pbiwolski]

Revangelist,

Were you ever sealed with that holy Spirit of promise? (Eph 1:13)
Was the sealing until the day of redemption? (E. 4:30) or was it until you may decide you don't what to be saved anymore?

Your II Peter quotation above speaks of false teachers (v.1) and deals with knowledge, not salvation.

An old man once said, "All heresy in this age is the truth misplaced." AMEN

Very convenient. The remarriage issue is another problem. What do you tell people who are remarried? Are they still saved? Are they living in perpetual adultery? I was sealed with the Holy spirit of promise. I was sealed until the day of redemption. Just as the Scriptures say. My 2nd Peter Quote isn't just for false teachers. You are guilty, as many are, making the Bible fit your doctrine. No where does it say we can't lose our salvation, no where does it say we can't walk away from Christ. You remarriage doctrine is also not quite right.

1 Corinthians 7:27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.


You are trying to make man unable to make choices and that just isn't reality. We aren't bound to salvation with no choice to walk away from God. That is silly and illogical. The Bible isn't silly or illogical.

You want to believe that doctrine, so you will do whatever it takes to try and substantiate it. When given Scriptures that say otherwise, you interpret them to suit your doctrine. Eternal Security is a careless doctrine. I agree with the doctrine up to the point of man's ability to choose. God gave us the ability to choose. Otherwise everyone would be saved because of the following Scripture:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

There is a way to resolve this issue...see next posting....

The problem here is the inability to resolve a paradox. The doctrine of the Trinity is a paradox, yet a resolution is found. We say there is one God, and find three persons in the Bible called God. So, to resolve it, we say God (and there is only one God) manifests Himself in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Ghost (simplified of course).

The doctrine of eternal security and the doctrine of the possibility of losing salvation are both correct, but a paradox is created by that but can be worked out. Like so:

When a person receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, he is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption (paraphrasing). A man can choose to walk away from Christ and His gift. Resolution, God offers us eternal security, but because man is sinful and stubborn and has free will, man can reject that gift and walk away from the promise. Both can be correct.

[atlas]

Revangelist,

The doctrine of eternal security and the doctrine of the possibility of losing salvation are both correct

You are 100% incorrect. I do see you are willing to compromise your doctrine at the drop of a hat just like most evangelist, you have more in common with Baptist than I thought.

When do we get sealed? Is it at the time of accepting salvation or one second after we die? How can we undo our rebirth?

I however will not compromise Bible doctrine. There is no paradox. If you believe you can keep yourself saved. The only way you can get to heaven is God saving you and you keeping yourself saved. That is faith + works. That does not work with salvation. Salvation is not of works. Not any part of salvation is completed by any works that we have done, only by the works that HE has done. Our works are worthless. That is why Paul talked about faith all of the time and said salvation was by faith alone faith without works. If you are trusting in your works to get you saved or keep you saved, you are 100% wrong.

You can not just walk away from you family relationship with God, he is your father no matter what. No more than you can walk away from your earthly father. You are his son no matter what. there is no walking away from your birth, physical or spiritual. I was born a sinner, I am still a sinner. My spirit was born of God, I will always be a child of that birth. I will always be his son, he will always be my father.

I will stay saved by the finished works of Jesus Christ, I will go to heaven only because of HIS works. I was saved by HIS works and I am kept by HIS works. Paul always talked about his sinful flesh. If his flesh was sinful just think about how sinful our flesh is. My wicked sinful flesh cold not keep me saved for one day, much less for the rest of my life. I have never saw anyone get saved or born again and again in the Bible.

I saw Peter deny Jesus 3 times. Jesus even talked to him about it. He never got resaved. If anyone ever chose to walk away from God it was Peter, but the Holy Ghost was in side of ole' Peter. Peter had been born again. He told Jesus he loved him and it was all over. Can a man get out of Gods perfect will? Sure he can. Peter did just that, but Peter did not need to get saved again. You and I are not half the man Peter was. One day they took Peter and was going to kill him. Peter ask to be crucified upside down. He said he was not worthy to die in the same fashion as Jesus died. Peter was saved form the time Jesus told him to come with me and I'll make you fishers of men. He was saved when he denied Jesus 3 times. He was saved when they killed him for being a Christian.

I am saved and on my way to heaven. I may backslide, I may do something wrong, I may sin, but I'm saved. I am saved by HIS works. I am sealed by HIS works. I am still a sinner and will be until I die, but I'm a saved sinner. I'm only saved because of HIM and what HE did for me. I know what my works are, filthy rags. I know what my flesh is, wicked and sinful. On the inside I was born of the Spirit of God. My inside is perfect, it is perfect because of HIM. That Spirit inside of me is the Holy Ghost, and HE is sinless. When I sin he rebukes me. He leads me back to God's will. He looks after me, he helps me make it in this sinful world and my sinful body.

The only good thing about me is the Spirit I was born of. I thank God for saving me. I thank him for keeping me saved. If you are saved and going to heaven, it is only because of HIM. You had nothing to do with it. You are wicked and sinful. Your flesh hates God and only wants to do evil. We all are the same. God knows that and that is why he gave us eternal life the second we got saved. He knew we could not keep it ourselves. he knew he'd have to get us saved and keep us saved.


Atlas

Originally Posted by Revangelist

You want to believe that doctrine, so you will do whatever it takes to try and substantiate it. When given Scriptures that say otherwise, you interpret them to suit your doctrine. Eternal Security is a careless doctrine.

You are doing exactly what you accuse others of: you are so determined to believe that salvation is NOT eternally secure that you look for loopholes everywhere in the Word of God instead of trying to reconcile passages and rightly divide the Word.

[Debau]

Romans 8:38-39

"For I am persuaded, that niether death, nor life, nor angels nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Nor height,nor deapth, nor any creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I don't think there was anything left out.
You bring reproach on the name of the Lord when you accuse Him of being a whimsical, fickle Indian giver.

[Paladin54]

Debau, those verses (Romans 8:38-39) do not answer, however, what if someone really honestly converts to a different faith? What if they become Moslem, where they are forced to renounce the divinity of Christ? These verses assure the believer that his faith is secure, but it does not appear that the author is referring to someone who willfully deserts Christ-without being restored.

I am not now questioning "preservation of the saints", as I am now prayerfully considering, but these verses do not seem to support it....help here?