[Brother Tim]

Brother Tim admonished me for quoting only part of a portion of Scripture to make my point earlier in this thread. Yet authors of the NT text took OT Scriptures out of their immediate context to make relevant points. The ox treading the corn comes to mind.

Tandi, I must not let this point go by without instruction.

When a portion of the Scriptures is taken for use in point-making, that in itself is not wrong. It does become wrong when the portion by itself does not complete the thought, and becomes even a greater wrong when the apparent meaning of the message is altered.

The verse that you used was 1 Corinthians 2:9,

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Left on its own, the implication is that we cannot understand what awaits us in future eternity.

However, the next verse, verse 10,

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

completes the thought, letting us know that in fact we can have a glimpse into the unknown future through spiritual eye sight provided us by the Holy Spirit.

I will give you another illustration: If one quotes just a portion of a verse (which has been known to happen) the truth can not only be hidden, but false teaching can be justified. Take Mark 16:16,

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I have talked with Church of Christ members who quote only up to the semicolon and then try to prove by those words that baptism is necessary for salvation. I always ask them to show me the verse in their Bible, and then have them read "the rest of the story."

Now you end your post with a prediction:

So now that I have said all of this, I expect that my words will be analyzed, dissected for error and heresy, and I will pay a penalty for speaking my mind.

I don't want you to think that I am analyzing or dissecting, nor most certainly am I demanding payment (though donations are always accepted [sorry] ). I am a pastor and teacher. I am compelled to point out a mistake in the use of a verse, or portion thereof, when I see it. The verse that you used is actually quite commonly misused in the same manner as you did.

I agree that we need to pay our respects to Geologist's beloved pet (and as I said at the beginning, I can sincerely sympathize, for I have been there more than once) and let this thread pass from the first page into oblivion.

[Renee]

Aloha Geoligist,

I accept your apology. If we knew each other and were talking face to face, this ("misunderstanding"?)would never have happened.

I believe firmly in the ministry of reconciliation:

2Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

George says that if I didn't always forget things and was a better housekeeper I would be the perfect wife. He does say I am the perfect wife for him though.

I hope we can put this thread to rest.

In Christ,
Renee

Originally Posted by Renee

I hope we can put this thread to rest.

I AGREE....

[PB1789]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

This is a troubling statement. It is similar to a song that I heard recently. The chorus was describing heaven as being beautiful because "you are there". I assumed that it was speaking of Jesus, but then I heard the next verse where it talked of the "you" of the chorus walking and talking with Jesus. The song was about a dead loved one.

The truth of the matter is that our praise and adoration and complete focus will be on the LORD Jesus Christ and Him alone. We will not be concerned about who or what else is present there. There is no Scriptural authority for telling a little child that he will see his dead puppy in heaven! Christians have allowed songs written by men to replace, correct, or add to the Word of God.

Brother Tim! Well said.

I've had Beagles/English Springer Spaniels/a Chesapeake Bay Retriever/ and my Heinz 57 Horse over the years, but there is not one passage that says animals will be in heaven. Disney says it, not our Bible!

For about 8 years I worked at 2 Christian Book stores in So.Cal.. It is sad and scaary what some customers/shoppers say. Some of the things that people believe... I could compile a 5 page essay--- One saturday while I was the Used Book Buyer/Asst. Manager, a fellow came in pretending to shop... but was actually there to "enlighten" me and any customers within earshot with his hyper-Charismatic spirituality. This guy claimed (among other things) that his wife was "The Holy Spirit" ! I am not making this up. I was hoping that I would have been interrupted by a co-worker or a telephone call, but no. I've talked to Mormons and J.W's and R.C.'s before but this guy... -- never gave any thought nor read any guidebook to prepare to answer someone from extreme-pentecostal kookville.

[greenbear]

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
.................................................. ................

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

We know that death was non-existent before the fall of Adam. Christ conquered death. Romans 8:21-2 explicitly states that the creature itself shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption, and that creation groans within itself, as we do, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body, i.e. the rapture/resurrection.

I don't know if every bug, or earthworm will be resurrected but I believe that animals that do have souls will be resurrected. If we are given the timing of this event I'm not aware of it but I believe this is what scripture teaches. Yesterday, I saw a robin in the road that had probably flown into a moving vehicle and dropped onto the road. His little body was mangled, his wings broken but he was desperately trying to fly to safety as he was blown about by car in front of me. I felt tremendous sorrow seeing that little bird in terror and suffering. The Lord comforted me as I prayed that the next car would put him out of his misery. If I felt compassion over that little robin, how much more does the Lord feel?

I used to fret about whether the Lord was fair in His dealings with all the people that have ever existed, whether he sent children to hell, etc. When I just trusted Him that He is perfect in His ways then He showed me from His Word that the little ones go straight to Him when they die. I have hope of seeing my departed, beloved pets again. Will I be angry at God if I have misunderstood Romans 8:19-23? God forbid. He is just and true in all of his ways.

Would I break fellowship with a christian over the issue? Absolutely not!

Edit: "Romans 8:21-2 explicitly states that the creature itself shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption, and that creation groans within itself, as we do, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body, i.e. the rapture/resurrection of the rightous." Just a clarification because I didn't make this clear: the whole creation is waiting for the redemption of the bodies of saved people ("our body", not their own animal bodies) when sin and death is done away with.

[greenbear]

Of course animals will not be in heaven. If animals are indeed resurrected it would be either the Millennial Kingdom or the New Earth.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

There is NO QUESTION that there will be animals in the new earth. That is as plain as it can be. What is not said is that these are some kind of "resurrected" pets from our lives. God re-creates the earth and repopulates it with His creatures just as at the beginning.

Brother Tim,

I don't know the answers to these question for sure, but what is your scriptural evidence that "God re-creates the earth and repopulates it with His creatures just as at the beginning"? How do you know that the animals that repopulate the new earth are newly created creatures and not creatures resurrected into their original form (non-carnivorous or snakes with feet, for example)?

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.

Does He mean He makes all things over again, or does He make all things new, like the new man? He also describes the Tree Of Life in the New Earth. Is it the same Tree Of Life made anew or is it a totally different Tree Of Life?

The human beings are new creatures, but they existed before the new earth. Are the animals all newly created or are they resurrected into their original form before the curse? I don't know but I plan to study it because it's interesting to me.

Isaiah 11:1-9 (describing Christ's Millennial Kingdom)

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

This scripture only proves that the animals are changed back to their pre-curse form and function during the millennium. But from this we know that it is not just in the New Earth that animals are changed. In fact, I don't think we're actually told if there are animals in the New Earth.

Another somewhat related thought is whether we are still meat-eaters in the new Earth? I don't think so since no one hurts or destroys in all His holy mountain. Will the church be meat-eaters during the tribulation? Jesus ate fish after He was resurrected.

Luke 24:41-43 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them.

We know that during the Millennial Kingdom animal sacrifices will still occur. I believe that Israel, which has become sinless at the second coming of Christ, is commanded to continue some form of God's sacrificial system for the benefit of the gentiles (not the church) that inhabit the earth during this time.

Any comments are welcome.

[Brother Tim]

Our resurrection involves the reuniting of our souls/spirits with our bodies. Whilst our bodies are in the grave awaiting our resurrection, our souls/spirits are present with the LORD. For animals to be resurrected, the same must be true for them. I find no Scriptural evidence that animals have souls.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Our resurrection involves the reuniting of our souls/spirits with our bodies. Whilst our bodies are in the grave awaiting our resurrection, our souls/spirits are present with the LORD. For animals to be resurrected, the same must be true for them. I find no Scriptural evidence that animals have souls.

What is a soul? Is it self-awareness? Ability to think and reason and show loyalty and love? Have you ever had a pet that you somehow punished or chastised wrongly and you could discern that they felt betrayed because they knew they were being treated unjustly? Do some animals choose to do some of the things they do? You might have seen this passage coming in any kind of reply as it's really the only one I could use!

Numbers 22:21-38 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his ass, and went with the princes of Moab. And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him. And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way. But the angel of the LORD stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side. And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again. And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left. And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff. And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? and he said, Nay. Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me: And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive.

I suppose I risk being branded as a PETA activist or a person who majors on the minors but I'm more like a pit bull; I don't want to let go until I feel I have the answer.

[cliffordsndrs451]

I am not sure, but do not think I will be united with my wonderful pets. I do believe there is something in heaven though from Revelation 19.17

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God:"

I guess we'll know more when we get there, but I do not believe this is figurative or symbolic, so there are at least some animals, although I'm convinced I will not she my Sheba anymore. But she was a blessing while here.