[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Luke

But what you said I am in agreement with. The Bible says God lives sinners and it says He hates sinners. I said let God be sovereign in this issue. It is not out of His power to do both and still be God.

It seems to me that there are two camps arguing, and neither is willing to admit the other is right, when they are both right.

I have no problem with any of the verses you wrote. My only problem is with the two camps - one arguing that God hates sinners, no exceptions, and the other saying that God loves sinners, no exceptions.

The truth is as you said. God hates sinners and God loves sinners.

But what you said I am in agreement with. The Bible says God lives sinners and it says He hates sinners. I said let God be sovereign in this issue. It is not out of His power to do both and still be God.

Brother Luke, I understood you to be saying that, and I agree with you.

It seems to me that there are two camps arguing, and neither is willing to admit the other is right, when they are both right.

I have no problem with any of the verses you wrote. My only problem is with the two camps - one arguing that God hates sinners, no exceptions, and the other saying that God loves sinners, no exceptions.

My opinion is that there is no arguing. Healthy and profitable discussion, yes. Arguing, no. Reading the thread, I must be missing the "argumentative" tone you refer to.

I do, however, think words like stupid and childish tend to invalidate another persons opinion, and might actually make some feel stupid and childish! We should do our best to be gracious with words, if possible.

[Luke]

Sorry Brother.

[peopleoftheway]

Sadly, lately on these forums I havent felt moved in any manner to post, topics have been divisive, destructive and not in the least bit edifying. I personally feel grieved by this post, that the question that God hates sinners even arose on a Bible believing forum such as this.


1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If sinners are presented with a Gospel of "God hates you", will they not draw back from God even more? Sinners NEED the Love of Christ, they need the assurance of eternal salvation through the redeeming blood of an almighty Saviour, blood that was shed FOR SINNERS that they may be washed clean by Gods Grace through faith In the Finished work of The Lord Jesus Christ on the cross at Calvary. Thank you Oh Lord for your Mercy and suffering for ALL of us.
Amen

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

If sinners are presented with a Gospel of "God hates you", will they not draw back from God even more? Sinners NEED the Love of Christ, they need the assurance of eternal salvation through the redeeming blood of an almighty Saviour, blood that was shed FOR SINNERS that they may be washed clean by Gods Grace through faith In the Finished work of The Lord Jesus Christ on the cross at Calvary. Thank you Oh Lord for your Mercy and suffering for ALL of us.
Amen

Dear Brother Steve, I don't think anyone who has tried to answer the question on this thread would disagree with you brother. And like you, and others, I did not enjoy considering the possibility of God hating anyone. But the scripture cannot be ignored, as you know. By the way, I too have never witnessed to someone and said "God hates you"!

A young convert, who also happens to be young in years asked, I believe, a very sincere question. Not to be divisive or destructive, but because she wanted to know. Her original question was:

It seems that there are passages in the Bible that teach that God hates sinners. I don't like that idea, but it appears to be Biblical. My whole life I had heard that "God hates the sin, not the sinner" but somewhere in Psalms it says that God hates sinners. What is the truth on this matter?

Her question, "What is the truth on this matter?" seemed honest enough, so I looked at the scriptures on both sides, as others have, and attempted to sincerely answer her question based on what the bible says.

• Personally, I have been instructed by the contents of this thread because it is has made me address an issue I've never been aware of of in my 30 years as a believer. It has taught me that God hates the workers of iniquity, the wicked, and those that love violence. This, I believe, applies to a lost person.

Psalms 5:4-6 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psalms 11:4-7 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth

• It has edified me by reminding me of the amazing love, undeserved mercy, abundant grace, and wonderful plan of redemption God has for a sinner, such as I, through the precious shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Romans 5:8-10 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Ephesians 2:4-7 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

I sincerely pray you and others who have been disturbed by this topic will see it as a testimony to how great, powerful, merciful, and loving our God is. To think that we were once the enemy of God but have now been reconciled through Christ, should stir our hearts with overwhelming gratitude and loyalty to our creator and redeemer.

In Christ, and in brotherly love, Forrest.

[peopleoftheway]

Brother Forrest, the post itself hasnt disturbed me, neither has the poster, its a subject (and I am sure many have encountered it before) that I have seen used to bring evil intention against the lost in a fruitless effort, to tell a lost and needy sinner that God hates them is a step to braking them altogether. What they really need to hear is of the Greatest Love ever given, a Crucified Saviour who died for us, rose again and is seated at the right hand of power.
All through the New Testament Christ expounds that we must love our enemies even when they hate us.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

The World hated, despised and Crucified The Lord Jesus Christ, yet on the cross he forgave them
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

I certainly agree that God hated evil, workers of iniquity in the Old
Testament, But Christ was a new way, a way that allows those who were and are dead in their sins to draw close to an Almighty Sovereign God, through that Powerful shed Blood of a risen Saviour

God in the new testament mentions hate in Revelation regarding the Nicolatians and that was hate of their deeds and False Doctrine, not the people doing the deeds or holding to the Doctrine.

Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

I pray your Health is well Brother, I still have limited time on the net now as I still have none at home and only get online at my Mothers.
God Bless you and Yours

Your Brother In Christ

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

Brother Forrest, the post itself hasnt disturbed me, neither has the poster, its a subject (and I am sure many have encountered it before) that I have seen used to bring evil intention against the lost in a fruitless effort, to tell a lost and needy sinner that God hates them is a step to braking them altogether. What they really need to hear is of the Greatest Love ever given, a Crucified Saviour who died for us, rose again and is seated at the right hand of power.

I certainly agree that God hated evil, workers of iniquity in the Old
Testament, But Christ was a new way, a way that allows those who were and are dead in their sins to draw close to an Almighty Sovereign God, through that Powerful shed Blood of a risen Saviour.

God Bless you and Yours
Your Brother In Christ

What they really need to hear is of the Greatest Love ever given, a Crucified Saviour who died for us, rose again and is seated at the right hand of power.

Agreed!

I certainly agree that God hated evil, workers of iniquity in the Old Testament, But Christ was a new way, a way that allows those who were and are dead in their sins to draw close to an Almighty Sovereign God, through that Powerful shed Blood of a risen Saviour.

I cannot rectify the difference here between the "Old Testament" and "New Testament." Do the scriptures in Psalms still apply today? That seems to be the issue.

I wholly believe that Jesus Christ is the solution. And those who are in Christ, are completely cleansed, forgiven, justified, and reconciled with God based on the sacrifice of Christ alone. But what is God's heart today regarding the workers of iniquity, the wicked, and the lovers of violence? Has He now repented of His previous proclamation since Calvary? This seems to be the question. I've concluded that He still has a hate/love relationship with mankind. (See Brother Parrish's post. I think he did a good job explaining it.)

By the way, I was wrong about the divisiveness issue. Per aussiemama's own confession early in this thread, she did indeed want to stir up strife by bringing up this topic. I had forgotten about that. Therefore, I am truly sorry to those (Atlas, Luke, and you) who were sensitive to this particular subject. In saying that, God meant it for good. He used this topic in my life to teach some truth I've never considered before.

[MC1171611]

"God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Regardless of His feelings toward sinners, be they love or hate (though the Bible is clear on that), He still is not willing to see anyone die and go to Hell. Yes, He will put them there because He is Sovereign. Yes, he will destroy them eternally in Hell because He is Holy. But no, He does not enjoy the calamity they bring upon themselves. He is Holy and Righteous: all that He does is perfect.

I think I have a love/hate relationship with this subject...