[Forrest]

Originally Posted by chette777

If the sin is in the drinking of alcoholic wine, then God would be unrighteous to tell Israel to do so in Duet, and Jesus would be a sinner for drinking wine. (a winebibber is one who consumes to much Alcoholic wine not juice so the Pharisees knew it was alcoholic wine or they couldn't make the claim).

Brother Chette, did Jesus really drink "fermented" grape juice?

"The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children" (Matthew 11:19).

Now, does it actually mean our Lord was a "glutton" and a "winebibber" when he was accused by men of being one? Or did blind men accuse Him of being a glutton and winebibber? "and they say." Remember, John the Baptist was accused of having a devil (verse 18)!

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise" (Proverbs 20:1).

Do you honestly believe the Lord Jesus Christ drank something that was a mocker? And do you actually believe He drank something that deceives many and causes them to be unwise? Did Jesus partake in a drink that would cause drunkenness?

"In remembrance of me." Fruit of the vine, not "fermented" fruit of the vine.

Originally Posted by chette777

Also the Bible tells us the strong drink is for the physically weak and those about to die. the reason is obveious it helps deaden the pain. also it was recommended Biblically to give to the one who was mourning or heart broken to help cheer them. the sin is not inthe drinking of wine it is DRUNKENESS.

Not sure where the Bible says that strong drink is for those about to die, my KJV says 'Give strong drink to him that is about to perish...'

You may want to look up that word perish in a lexicon or concordance. It does not mean 'die' at all. It is the word 'abad,' and it means 'to wander away.' This is speaking of someone who has rejected God altogether, not someone who is on their deathbed.

Also, 'wine to those that be of heavy hearts.' Again, I encourage you to research the word 'heavy.' It is the Hebrew word 'mar,' and simply means bitter or discontented.

Are God's people to be bitter? Not according to my KJV. Paul, in all his trials, wrote:
2 Corinthians 4:8 [We are] troubled on every side, yet not distressed; [we are] perplexed, but not in despair;
2 Corinthians 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
2 Corinthians 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

If we submit ourselves to God in times of trial, we will see the way of escape is not found in a bottle, but rather in Jesus Christ.

Scripture declares we are kings and priests unto the Lord, and since the Word of God states it is not for kings to drink wine (Proverbs 31:4), it is not for us to drink wine. A clear call to abstinence from the Word of God.

[LindaR]

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

When I was not on the right path, I drank. I was depressed, life was not a bed of roses. I knew what I was doing was wrong in the eyes of the LORD but I still rebelled against that feeling and drank more. Now I, having been in the darkest depths of despair through alcohol and other substances could feel the change in personality starting even after 1 or 2 beers and then,a progression onto a need for other stronger drinks.
Wine is a Mocker yes, its the devil Mocking your weakness
Strong Drink is raging yes, it makes a normally peaceful person aggressive.
Now when I think back to those hazy days and look at a bar, I see familiar "Spirits" and THANK THE LORD MY GOD that I am delivered and forgiven from that nightmare that is alcohol and strive through his Grace not to put those spirits into my Temple EVER again.
I beg the liberals, don't be liberal concerning booze. People say things they normally wouldn't say after 1 drink, do things they normally wouldn't do after 1 drink. If its not the "Buzz" that Christians are after then why drink at all?
Alcohol is a destroyer when consumed, I have felt it destroying me and watched it destroy others around me, its from the devil. And for those that say, "well, its good in moderation for my heart", put the glass down and go for a 10 min walk, thats even better for you heart.

In My Saviour's name, The LORD Jesus Christ

AMEN Brother! I was married to a drunk for almost 20 years...he never knew the freedom that was in Christ because he remained in bondage to alcohol until it finally killed him in October, 2000. He was deceived by people who told him it was okay to drink "in moderation" and that 1 or 2 drinks won't hurt. IMHO, drunkenness begins with the first sip. Wine is indeed a mocker....after you've taken that first sip, you have already been deceived.

Originally Posted by chette777

there are however Biblical guidlines for drinking. the Bible says wine is to be given those with a heavy heart and strong drink to those who are dying.

God never says the sin is drinking, again it is drunkeness for if drinking were a sin and look at this verse if God were against the drinking he would be wrong to say this to Israel, And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strongdrink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, Duet. 14:26.

Great to hear you are set free fro the sin of drukeness and given your background even one drink would be to much for your adictive personality. most of us have that problem and it is best we don't drink at all. My testamony of coming out of drug addiction and alcoholism points only one sorce of my deliverance and that is my Lord Jesus Christ.and he drank wine ocasionally

God did indeed tell the Israelites to go and buy wine and strong drink. But He certainly was not condoning an alcoholic wine or alcoholic strong drink.

Deuteronomy 29:6 tells us they drank no wine, nor strong drink.
Deuteronomy 32:14 tells us what they drank... the pure blood of the grape.

Clearly, they did not drink alcoholic wines or alcoholic strong drinks, but rather the unfermented juice of the grape!

Deuteronomy 32:33 calls the alcoholic wine poison, yet what the Israelites drank was pure... not poisonous.

And we know alcohol is poisonous to the organs of the body.

[peopleoftheway]

Hey Sister.

Sorry that you had to go through what you did, but I am positive our LORD has led you through it all and made you a stronger woman from it. I went through a real bad trot when I wasn't right with God, substance abuse, alcohol and near death and I was very aware of the gravity of my unrepentant sin, but however the LORD is merciful when we bend our knee and ask his forgiveness. I took all that pain and suffering, wrapped it up in the rags of my life, took it to the cross and asked my Saviour to take it all away, and he did. Ohh what a faithful and merciful God we have.
You are absolutely right, "one sip wont hurt" is a lie of the devil.

God Bless

[Forrest]

I think Brother George's comment puts it in perspective. We should all avoid the appearance (view, form, fashion, or sight) of evil.

I conducted a wedding ceremony years ago for a young couple. They were new converts. During the reception the newly wed young man asked my "elderly" and wiser friend, "Would you like a glass of wine?" My friend responded kindly, "No thank you."

"You don't think this glass of wine will send me to hell do you?"

"No, I don't. It may send someone else to hell though!"

I thought that was wise counsel.

[LindaR]

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

Hey Sister.

Sorry that you had to go through what you did, but I am positive our LORD has led you through it all and made you a stronger woman from it. I went through a real bad trot when I wasn't right with God, substance abuse, alcohol and near death and I was very aware of the gravity of my unrepentant sin, but however the LORD is merciful when we bend our knee and ask his forgiveness. I took all that pain and suffering, wrapped it up in the rags of my life, took it to the cross and asked my Saviour to take it all away, and he did. Ohh what a faithful and merciful God we have.
You are absolutely right, "one sip wont hurt" is a lie of the devil.

God Bless

It's really sad that so many are listening to the devil's lie rather than to Christ. It all started in the Garden of Eden when the serpent said to Eve: "Yea, hath God said" (Gen. 3:1).

Originally Posted by Forrest

Brother Chette, did Jesus really drink "fermented" grape juice?

"The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children" (Matthew 11:19).

Now, does it actually mean our Lord was a "glutton" and a "winebibber" when he was accused by men of being one? Or did blind men accuse Him of being a glutton and winebibber? "and they say." Remember, John the Baptist was accused of having a devil (verse 18)!

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise" (Proverbs 20:1).

Do you honestly believe the Lord Jesus Christ drank something that was a mocker? And do you actually believe He drank something that deceives many and causes them to be unwise? Did Jesus partake in a drink that would cause drunkenness?

"In remembrance of me." Fruit of the vine, not "fermented" fruit of the vine.

Amen!
Oh that men would grasp the truth that one sip does hurt.

In Proverbs 23:29 and 30, the reader is shown results of lingering long at fermented beverage; i.e., woe, sorrow, bloodshot eyes, unnecessary wounds, constant quarreling, etc..

There is no instruction whatsoever in those two verses to drink a little, but make sure one does not stay at the alcohol too long... only a teaching that those who linger at the wine will have the sorrows associated with it.

Verse 31 clearly says have nothing to do with fermented wine. Again, nowhere does it say drink a little fermented wine and then stop... Nowhere!

Verses 32 through 35 warn the reader of more devesting events if one does not heed the warning to avoid that mocker known as alcohol. The one who will not heed the warning to 'Look not thou' will feel the bite of the poison, the one who ignores the warning will become addicted to the poison found in that bottle they chose to drink from. They will become abusive in their language, they will join themselves to company that is not godly, even though the poison they choose to drink causes them to reel and eventually cause them to pass out, when they wake they will want more of it.

God's Word clearly demands abstinence.

[George]

Aloha brother Chette,

In regards to BC's comments:

"Not sure where the Bible says that strong drink is for those about to die, my KJV says 'Give strong drink to him that is about to perish...'

You may want to look up that word perish in a lexicon or concordance. It does not mean 'die' at all. It is the word 'abad,' and it means 'to wander away.' This is speaking of someone who has rejected God altogether, not someone who is on their deathbed.

Also, 'wine to those that be of heavy hearts.' Again, I encourage you to research the word 'heavy.' It is the Hebrew word 'mar,' and simply means bitter or discontented.

Are God's people to be bitter? Not according to my KJV. Paul, in all his trials, wrote: "
2 Corinthians 4:8 [We are] troubled on every side, yet not distressed; [we are] perplexed, but not in despair;
2 Corinthians 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
2 Corinthians 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

"If we submit ourselves to God in times of trial, we will see the way of escape is not found in a bottle, but rather in Jesus Christ.

Scripture declares we are kings and priests unto the Lord, and since the Word of God states it is not for kings to drink wine (Proverbs 31:4), it is not for us to drink wine. A clear call to abstinence from the Word of God."

You may want to research the "validity" of what BC is claiming:

"Not sure where the Bible says that strong drink is for those about to die, my KJV says 'Give strong drink to him that is about to perish...' {G.A.: First off - Do you notice the "smart Alec" attitude? Of course he knows where the verse is and what you are referring to!}
You may want to look up that word perish in a lexicon or concordance. It does not mean 'die' at all. It is the word 'abad,' and it means 'to wander away.' This is speaking of someone who has rejected God altogether, not someone who is on their deathbed."

The first thing that BC confesses is he's

"NOT SURE" {Doubt!} where the Bible says that strong drink is for those about to die,"

And since he's really "not sure" WHAT it says, he is going to run to other men (scholars & scribes) to find out what the words really "MEAN"! You may safely ignore BC's advise to go to a lexicon or concordance (for a "nugget" from "original languages") since our inspired, perfect, infallible, and Holy Bible is written in English {for ordinary English speaking people), and an English Dictionary {Websters 1828} says:

Webster's 1828 Dictionary
perish

PER'ISH, v.i.L. pereo, supposed to be compounded of per and eo, to go; literally, to depart wholly.

1. To die; to lose life in any manner; applied to animals. Men perish by disease or decay, by the sword, by drowning, by hunger or famine, &c.
2. To die; to wither and decay; applied to plants.
3. To waste away; as, a leg or an arm has perished.
4. To be in a state of decay or passing away.
Duration, and time which is part of it, is the idea we have of perishing distance.
5. To be destroyed; to come to nothing.
Perish the lore that deadens young desire.
6. To fail entirely or to be extirpated. 2 Kings.9.
7. To be burst or ruined; as, the bottles shall perish.
Luke 5.
8. To be wasted or rendered useless. Jer.9.
9. To be injured or tormented. 1 Cor.8.
10. To be lost eternally; to be sentenced to endless misery. 2 Pet.2.

PER'ISH, v.t. To destroy. Not legitimate.

You were RIGHT and BC and all of the scholars and scribes that he "subscribes" to are Wrong! Dead wrong!

Here is BC again:

"Also, 'wine to those that be of heavy hearts.' Again, I encourage you to research the word 'heavy.' It is the Hebrew word 'mar,' and simply means bitter or discontented."

Here we have another Hebrew "nugget" for us poor, dumb, uneducated folks. But, what does an English Dictionary say? It sure doesn't say that the word heavy - "simply means bitter or discontented." - Does it?

[quote]Webster's 1828 Dictionary
heavy

HEAV'Y, a. hev'y.
1. Weighty; ponderous; having great weight; tending strongly to the center of attraction; contrary to light; applied to material bodies; as a heavy stone; a heavy load.
2. Sad; sorrowful; dejected; depressed in mind.
A light wife makes a heavy husband.
So is he that singeth songs to a heavy heart. Prov.25.
3. Grievous; afflictive; depressing to the spirits; as heavy news; a heavy calamity.
4. Burdensome; oppressive; as heavy taxes.
Make thy father's heavy yoke--lighter. 1 Kings.12.
5. Wanting life and animation; dull.
My heavy eyes you say confess
A heart to love and grief inclined.
6. Drowsy; dull.
Their eyes were heavy. Matt.26. Luke.9.
7. Wanting spirit or animation; destitute of life or rapidity of sentiment; dull; as a heavy writer; a heavy style.
8. Wanting activity or vivacity; indolent.
But of a heavy, dull, degenerate mind.
9. Slow; sluggish.
He walks with a heavy gait.
10. Burdensome; tedious; as heavy hours.
Time lies heavy on him who has no employment.
11. Loaded; encumbered; burdened.
He found his men heavy, and laden with booty.
12. Lying with weight on the stomach; not easily digested; as, oily food is heavy to the stomach.
13. Moist; deep; soft; miry; as heavy land; a heavy soil. We apply heavy to soft loamy or clayey land, which makes the draught of a plow or wagon difficult and laborious. So we say, a heavy road.
14. Difficult; laborious; as a heavy draught.
15. Weary; supported with pain or difficulty.
And the hands of Moses were heavy. Ex.17. {G.A. Were Moses' hands - "bitter or discontented."? Is BC REALLY SERIOUS?or should any one take him seriously?}
16. Inflicting severe evils,punishments or judgments.
The hand of the Lord was heavy on them of Ashdod.
l Sam.5.
17. Burdensome; occasioning great care.
This thing is too heavy for thee. Ex.18.
18. Dull; not hearing; inattentive.
Neither his ears heavy, that he cannot hear. Is.59.
19. Large, as billows; swelling and rolling with great force; as a heavy sea.
20. Large in amount; as a heavy expense; a heavy debt.
21. Thick; dense; black; as a heavy cloud.
22. Violent; tempestuous; as a heavy wind or gale.
23. Large; abundant; as a heavy fall of snow or rain.
24. Great; violent; forcible; as a heavy fire of cannon or small arms.
25. Not raised by leaven or fermentation; not light; clammy; as heavy bread.
26. Requiring much labor or much expense; as a heavy undertaking.
27. Loud; as heavy thunder.

Heavy metal, in military affairs, signifies large guns, carrying balls of a large size, or it is applied to large balls themselves.

"Are God's people to be bitter? Not according to my KJV. Paul, in all his trials, wrote: "

Does the word HEAVY ever mean: "bitter or discontented."? NOT ACCORDING TO 27 POSSIBLE MEANINGS FOR THE WORD IN PLAIN ENGLISH - from an ENGLISH Dictionary!

Those of us (who are reasonable and understanding) knew full well that you were not advocating drinking any kind of alcohol - and for BC to accuse you of this is disingenuous, devious, duplicitous, guileful, indirect, lubricious, shifty, sneaky, and underhanded.

It always amazes me as to what lengths a "Bible believer" will go to "correct" our Final Authority and substitute men's opinions (scholars & scribes, or their own) for the Holy words of God {Always referring to the "original languages" - Of Course!).

It's like this brother: When the lexicons and concordances (And the scribes & scholars who wrote them) run contrary to the English words of God - DUMP EM! When in DOUBT - throw them OUT! THROW THEM ALL OUT!

Scripture nowhere says strong drink is for those about to die.

Tell ya what, George, it is not me who is denying the clear Word concerning alcohol... you have no excuse, the Word has been given.

Look thou not means exactly that. And it does not say drink a glass or two and then stop... contrary to what many think.

Perish in Proverbs 31 merely means to wander away. The Hebrew nowhere says to be destroyed. Webster's adds to be destroyed because word definitions have changed over the last 2000 years.