Jerry:

Wow - there is no arguing or debating with someone who refuses to take the Bible literally and at face value. Whatever anyone says and shows from the Bible on the subject, you will explain away again. These are my last words in this debate with you - as it is pointless. I will gladly debate with someone who cares about God's Word and is willing to debate what it actually states - not symbolizing it and explaining it away.

You must have only read the last paragraph of my post. That's more or less a "summation." Above it I try to prove everything by Scripture. You have not given any Scriptures to prove your point, you only make declarations. For example

Satan already fell from Heaven - but Revelation 12 teaches he has yet to
be cast out of Heaven. He still has access to accuse the brethren before
the Lord - until the midpoint of the Tribulation period when he is cast out.

When did Satan fall from heaven? How are you able to position Revelation 12 in the midpoint of the Tribulation? Who are the brethren? If you cannot show by Scripture, then at least give me page number, name of the book, and author of the book, you have learned all that from.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Easy E:

Ditto on the "wow".

I guess my question is: If Jesus is reigning right now, why is he doing such a horrible job?

That is the point of the 1000 reign, correct? Or did you not get that when you read verses like Zecariah 14:9, Luke 1:32,33 and Jer 3:17, etc. Etc. ETC? and Guess What - Those aren't the only ones.

How can you judge whether or not Jesus is doing such a horrible job as King? Zechariah 14:9 says that the LORD shall be King over all the earth. So, He is reign is perfect?
Now drop down to verse 13. Total Anarchy!

The common belief is that Israel goes though the Tribulation fighting the Antichrist, then Christ returns and rescues them. That's how the futurist sees it. But see how the Bible tells it in Zechariah 14:1-2. Big difference, wouldn't you say? Which is coorrect, the futurist Bible teacher, or the Bible itself?

In the first place, how do you fit the thousand year reign into Zechariah 14:9? I'm not denying it, I just want to know how you do it.

cpmac
www tribulationhoax.com

[Easy E]

cpmac,

Which is coorrect, the futurist Bible teacher, or the Bible itself?

I'm not too sure about "futurist" but, could they both agree, is that a possibility there? I remember hearing about a thing called a "false dichotomy" but I can't remember what that is...

About Zec 14 (also ignoring the other verses, etc,etc,etc):

I guess the whole chapter just means what it says. Of course there is "anarchy" in the chapter, verse 12 and 13 to the end of the chapter describe what is happening at the beginning of the reign of Christ. Just like it says (vs.13). That is sinners and nations get what they deserved and Christ reigns.

I could go on, but I think the point has been made that Internet discussion boards are a poor substitute for sitting down with a person and openin up a Bible.

Easy E:

Zechariah continues to speak of "that day," and "The day of the Lord," and such. When is that?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

[Easy E]

Zechariah continues to speak of "that day," and "The day of the Lord," and such. When is that?

Why do I have to do all the work? Just do a search on any good Bible program on the computer and let the Bible describe what it is and when.

Or maybe you have a ulterior motive for asking that question. Why? are you leading me into something?

Or maybe you have a ulterior motive for asking that question. Why? are you leading me into something?

From your first post (#40), you seemed confident in what you know, and were anxious to pass it on. I may not agree, and I may even say so, but I'm willing to listen. Who can be led where he's not willing to go?

cpmac
tribulationhoax.com

[Easy E]

Fine, I see. Sometimes, cp, you don't seem very willing to be led.

The Day of the Lord is the time when Christ returns. Have I answered your question?

That "day is the literal 24 hour period of his return and also the Millenial reign, in a II Peter 3:8 sorta way.

This is, of course, still future, as Christ is not reigning from Jerusalem right now.

Originally Posted by cpmac

Ezek. 18:
v20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:"

We are told that there will be a future seven year Great Tribulation, wherein Israel shall be punished for the sin of crucifying Christ. But, even if it happens today, that is many generations removed from the actual generation that rejected and crucified Christ. Isn't that contrary to Ezekiel 18:20?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

First, "the soul that sins it shall die" etc. refers to the soul, to hell. God does not condemn anyone to hell for their parents sins. Calvinism and Catholicism are lies, that is, there is no such thing as anyone being condemned to hell for Adam's sin. Adam's sin bring physical death on us as punishment for his sin, yes, but "the soul that sins it shall die," that is, only our personal sins can send us to hell. God does indeed inflict physical punishments in this life on those who did not sin for their parents sins, as he says he will visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the 3rd and 4th generation (Exo 34:7) which refers merely to something earthly, but he will not (he will never!) condemn anyone to hell for another person's sins, not for their immediate parents and not for Adam's but only for their own. This means, in other words, no babies go to hell.

Now, the 7 year peace treaty between the antichrist and the Palestinians comes from a twisted backwards interpretation of Daniel 9:27. Read Daniel 9:27 in the KJV. It is about Jesus confirming the New Covenant and how that Jesus by his death on the cross eradicated the animal sacrifices but because the Jews kept offering those abominations he made it, that is, the temple mount desolate and the temple mount will remain desolate until the consumation, that is, the end of time. But many heretics reverse this and make the verse about the antichrist and say that the antichrist will confirm a covenant or treaty between the jews and palestinaians for 7 years and make the animal sacrifices to cease -- hello!!!!!!! The animal sacrifices ceased back in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed! How is the antichrist going to make something cease that Jesus already made to cease? You see, these evil men want us confused as to who is for animal sacrifices, Christ or antichrist. The only way that antichrist could stop the animal sacrifices is if they started up again, but Daniel 9:27 is all about the temple mount being desolate forever, meaning no legitimate animal sacrifices can ever be offered. Well, of course no legitimate animal sacirfices could ever be offered now, since Jesus is the final sacrifice for sins, and by his once for all sacrifice he has rendered all animal sacrifices null and void! So, the mellinialists want us to think that Christ will come again to undo his work on the cross by reinstating the animal sacirfices. Why? Because they are the harbingers of antichrist. Antichrist will try and reinstitute the holocausts, that is, burnt offerings, and perhaps unwitting Jews and foolish protestants, and Catholics too, will offer their slain beasts to the antichrist, being deiceved and thinking that he is Jesus and that it is the mellinium! But it will not be Jesus but the antichrist and the temple will not be legitimate but another in a long line of abominations of desolations. Daniel 9:27 speaks of desolations plural being poured on the temple mount. First there was the temple to Jupiter that the Romans built after destroying the Jewish temple. Then the Muslims tore that down and built the Dome of the Rock, leaving one wall (the wailing wall) of the temple to Jupiter. As Jesus said, no stone of the Jewish temple is left on top of another. The wailing wall is the ruins of a pagan temple! Anyway, the antichrist might built a temple that is just another desolation that keeps the temple mount desolate of a true temple, and there he might receive animal sacrifices because people will be decieved into thinking it is the mellinium and that he is Christ. But be ye not deived, for Daniel 9:27 is about Christ not antichrist! And, we know that Jesus would never reinstate the animal sacrifices that his death abolished and because of the abominable continuance of which after his death, he destroyed the temple via his divine providence, even as Stephen teaches in Acts chapters 6 and 7.

Originally Posted by Luke

If the 70th week has come and gone, as you say, then

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Why isn't there an end of sins, and everlasting righteousness, amongst the Jews, and in Israel, God's people, and his Holy City? Why is the most Holy not yet anointed as King and Priest of Israel? Why has the prophecy regarding Israel not yet completed?

Because his city is the church in the passage and so many other prophetic passages. The end of sins, the reconciliations for iniquity, the brining in of everlasting righteousness, and anointing the most holy (Jesus himself) is all done. But is is done in the church not in physical Israel. That's the whole point of Daniel 9. Daniel is praying "Oh God please end this captivity in Babylon soon so we can go rebuild the temple" and God says to him "Rebuild the temple? For what? You ain't going to enjoy it for long, because there are 70 weeks appointed on YOUR PEOPLE to bring in everlasting righteousness, etc. and anoint a new holy of holies, my Son Jesus Christ whom your people will slay for the sins of all men, and then your people cease to be my people and I destroy your temple (the 2nd temple) and then it remains destroyed forever because my Son Himself is the 3rd and final temple." The point of the chapter is that Daniel is gungho to rebuild the temple, and God basically says "get over the temple already." Rev 21:22 "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."

Easy E

Fine, I see. Sometimes, cp, you don't seem very willing to be led.

The Day of the Lord is the time when Christ returns. Have I answered your question?

That "day is the literal 24 hour period of his return and also the Millenial reign, in a II Peter 3:8 sorta way.

This is, of course, still future, as Christ is not reigning from Jerusalem right now.

2 Pet. 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

What that verse tells me is that time has no meaning where the Lord Himself is concerned, One day, or one minute, is the same as a thousand or a million years. And, by the way, I cannot find any Scriptures which show that Christ will reign from Jerusalem.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com