[Jeff]

Originally Posted by browilder61

. Who cares what Jeff or anyone like-minded thinks about Dr. Ruckman, go on and have your opinion, its a free country.

Why don't you tell me what my mind on the matter is, can you find anywhere where I stated it? Can you find one negative thing I've said about Dr. Ruckman? Strange that you do the same to me that people like George attempt to accuse me of doing.

Who is trying to squash people's opinions here?

[Renee]

[QUOTE=Jeff;2838]

Originally Posted by Renee

I'll ask you the same question George asked me, as impertinent as it may be; did you read his words? He is clearly quick to jump on those who dare to even question Dr. Ruckman. George feels free to criticize those who disagree with him, but no one else should have the same right. Why do you think he didn't attack Pbiwolski for this quote that sarted this new round:


Jerry's response to this was justified, yet Jerry is the one accused of bringing this subject back up.

I read his words and I do not get the same "thoughts" as you. I think you have put words in his mouth. Judge righteous judgment. Judge a man by his fruits. By their fruits you shall know them. So I wish everybody would just stop having as Dr Ruckman puts it; 'roast Ruckman'.

Geore may be "quick to jump on those who dare to even question Dr. Ruckman". But he would be quick to defend any brother who is in need of defending (when he knows him well). Brother Ruckman is known by me to be doing the ministery God has given him. He has reached people (in his crude way) that perhaps could not be reached by anyone else.

Paul was crude of speech.

My grandson is on the phone! I have lost my train of thought.

RUDE : 1. rough; uneven; rugged; unformed by art; as rude workmanship, that is, roughly finished; rude and unpolished stones.

2. Rough; of coarse manners; unpolished; uncivil; clownish; rustic; as a rude countryman; rude behavior; rude treatment; a rude attack.


CONTEMPTIBLE: 1. Worthy of contempt; that deserves scorn, or disdain; despicable; mean


Well I guess if you wouldn't have liked Paul if he was here either, because these two words define his manner of speech. But despite the protests, God is still blessing people through him.

For one thing, the slander I was referring to was not towards Dr. Ruckman's speech, but towards him being a heretic, hyperdispensationalist, weird, wacky doctrines and such, thats the slander

[George]

Let’s get the Chronology and the facts of this issue straight – and without pointing fingers and or making accusations (if possible).

When I came on the Forum (3/8/08), after browsing around for a while I noticed that a few folks on the Forum were being critical of brother Ruckman. On 3/08/08 I simply asked three questions of the members:

#1. Have you ever read any of the many books, commentaries, booklets, pamphlets, etc. that brother Ruckman has written? (And if so - how many? You don't have to list the names just the number -I'll trust you to be honest and truthful).

#2. Have you ever heard any of Peter Ruckman's numerous preaching and teaching tapes? (If so - how many? You don't have to list the names just the number -I'll trust you to be honest and truthful).

#3. Have you ever actually met brother Ruckman or been at any of his meetings where he has either preached or taught the word of God? (If so - where and when? I'll trust you to be honest and truthful).”

I never called anyone names or made any accusations. I just wanted to know if those people really knew much about brother Ruckman or were they going mostly on hear-say. [Proverbs 18:13] “He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.”

As I recall - only 2 people replied to those inquiries: Jerry said he had read 2 of Ruckman’s books and some articles on line and Tim had said that he had read an article on line and didn’t care for his crude language (or something along those lines). I never saw a reply from you. (So far so good.)

On 3/11/08 I gave my personal testimony about what I knew about brother Ruckman and basically made an appeal to all, that if they didn’t know brother Ruckman, maybe they shouldn’t be criticizing him. I don’t think that was unreasonable on my part. I never insisted that they not criticize him; I just tried to be reasonable and appealed to the members for “righteous judgment”.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

That was nearly a month ago – and all went well and peaceful until “the Geologist” came along and expressed his appreciation for brother Ruckman. And then all of a sudden the criticism started – again (from the same people)!

And so I came back on (not in defense of brother Ruckman), but wondering why anyone would be so quick to “Dump” on brother Ruckman, when hardly anything had been said about him (pro or con) for nearly a month. After the “negative comments by Jerry and Tim, I informed “Geologist” that they had been the same people who had been critical of brother Ruckman in the past. (Unjustifiable so in my judgment, since they knew very little about him personally and most of their criticism was based on hear-say.)

I said:
“I don't know exactly why Brother Tim has a problem with brother Ruckman, but I do have a strong suspicion as to why brother Jerry has a "bone of contention" with him.
Brother Jerry is a big "fan" of Brother David Cloud (He has referred to brother Cloud on this Forum and has "linked" to brother Cloud's site on occasion). I have visited brother Jerry's web page several times and it is real clear that he has a real high regard for brother David Cloud.”

If you go through the 450+ posts of brother Jerry you can verify what I say. Now anyone can be a “fan” of anyone they choose – I am a big believer in “real” Christian Liberty. Associate with whomsoever you want. Push whichever Christian “Celebrity” and his (or her) books, etc. you want, you won’t hear a peep out of me.

However, if you are going to be critical of someone you should be more specific than throwing out general: “foul mouth - or foul typewriting fingers” or “wacky or heretical doctrine”, etc., etc.

Search through all 49 posts that I have made on this forum. Except for my personal testimony of my knowledge of him and criticizing those who have criticized him, you will not find one post where I recommend any of his books, articles, tapes, etc. You will not find me quoting him one time. You will not find me posting a “link” to any of his web pages. Do I like him – you bet I do! Do I always agree with him – you bet I don’t! Do I always approve of his rough and crude language – no I don’t! (But it’s not “foul” – like brother Jerry claims.)

And now we come to this latest “squabble”. I have no idea why I upset Jeff, but I must have because all of a sudden he jumped on me for no apparent reason (at least that I can see) and has made some unfounded claims about what I have said – so here goes – I am going to list the posts and then (calmly and slowly and deliberatively and carefully) I am going to examine what was said and comment:

From Jeff:

Originally Posted by George
I find it very "instructive" that the same two people didn't hesitate to (once again) jump on brother Ruckman and freely criticize him. I thought we were done with that, but I guess as long as you are "nice" and "sweet" about it, that you can "bad mouth" a brother whenever you want to!

“George, what I get out of your words is that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you, such as Jerry and Brother Tim. However it is not alright to criticize those that you are a big fan of, such as Dr. Ruckman.
Is a man's character determined solely on what their views are and not how they conduct themselves?
Do you not see a double standard here?”


George’s reply to Jeff:

Originally Posted by Jeff
George, what I get out of your words is that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you, such as Jerry and Brother Tim. However it is not alright to criticize those that you are a big fan of, such as Dr. Ruckman.

Is a man's character determined soley on what their views are and not how they conduct themselves?

Do you not see a double standard here?

Did you read my words? "what I get out of your words". It's not "what you "get out of my words" - It's - what did I say? I never once said (or intimated) "that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you" No, not once! Please don't put words in my mouth.

I am saying let's stop criticizing brother Ruckman period! Have you seen me criticize brother Cloud or any other famous "Christian personality"? Why keep "beating up" on brother Ruckman if you have never met the man; or heard him preach or teach; or listened to his preaching & teaching tapes; or only read a couple of books by him? Hmmm?

There are other "fish to fry" out there. "Is a man's character determined solely on what their views are and not how they conduct themselves?" Good question! And I will answer it thusly: Is a man's character determined solely on what he says (or is reported to have said), or on his fruit? [Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.] We are not to judge by words, but by fruit - Is their anyone here that knows brother Ruckman well enough to be a "fruit inspector", if not then, let's drop the sniping of him - that's all.
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Check my posts out - you haven't seen me laud brother Ruckman; or "recommend him or his books or his tapes to anyone. I haven't "linked" to his site in all of my posts. I don't recommend any "Commentators" or "Commentaries" when it comes to Bible study.

I would be holding a double standard if I justified any wrongdoing that brother Ruckman does or has done. I never have and I never will!

Why do people judge other people when they know little or nothing about them?

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Why judge at all, if you don't have to?


Originally Posted by Jeff (Another review - Underlines are mine – George)

"George, what I get out of your words is that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you, such as Jerry and Brother Tim. However it is not alright to criticize those that you are a big fan of, such as Dr. Ruckman."

I posted my answer to Jeff (see above) and now I am going to carefully examine what he said – again.

“George, what I get out of your words” (I cannot help what any person “gets” out of my words – I cannot control how someone “interprets” them I can only try to be very careful to convey my ideas, thoughts, and beliefs in as clear a manner as I can.)

“what I get out of your words is that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you", (Now for Jeff to “prove” what he has just said or “claims”- he is going to have to reproduce those very same words or something very close to them from what I have written (49 posts) on this Forum. If he is honest and has any integrity, he must produce the words – my words - not what he “thinks” I “meant”!)

I have never said or claimed what he is attributing to me. He is missing the point – which is: a few people on this Forum had been criticizing brother Ruckman on a “regular basis” and I thought that, if they don’t know him or haven’t read him that they shouldn’t be so critical of him. Does that make me unreasonable? Does that make me a hypocrite? I think not.

"George, what I get out of your words is that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you, such as Jerry and Brother Tim. However it is not alright to criticize those that you are a big fan of, such as Dr. Ruckman."

I just pointed out that Jerry and Brother Tim are at the forefront of those few brothers on this Forum that have been critical of brother Ruckman. If it’s not true – prove it. If it is true why get upset? I wasn’t being critical of their beliefs, their walk, or their words; I was just stating a provable fact. (Have we gotten so thin-skinned that we cannot point out the truth?) I have asked the brethren to refrain from continually snipping at brother Ruckman – is that an unreasonable request? Is it Christ-like to continually criticize a brother in Christ – who you don’t even know?

Brother Jeff, you have done me a disservice in attributing to me something that I have not said. I have read many of your posts and I have found that I have been in agreement with you most of the time, that’s why I can’t understand why you suddenly “jumped” me on this issue.

"However it is not alright to criticize those that you are a big fan of, such as Dr. Ruckman." Again – I never said that or intimated it, and you would be hard pressed to prove it from my own words. I never said that it is not alright to criticize those that I am a big fan of. (Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? Or why are you criticizing me for something that I never said – but you “think” I said? Or you “think” I “meant”? How can you hold me responsible for something that I haven’t said?

And by the way – other than my testimony about brother Ruckman and my attempts to get the brethren to stop dumping on him, you couldn’t find anything in any of my other posts where I talk about him; praise him; or recommend him. (If you don't believe me - Check it out)

"Is a man's character determined solely on what their views are and not how they conduct themselves?" (I believe I answered this question adequately): Good question! And I will answer it thusly: Is a man's character determined solely on what he says? (or is reported to have said?), or on his fruit? Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
We are not to judge by words, but by fruit - Is their anyone here that knows brother Ruckman well enough to be a "fruit inspector", if not then, let's drop the sniping of him - that's all. Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

"Do you not see a double standard here?" (Again what double standard are you talking about? The one that you “think” I “meant”?) I am not guilty of a double standard, unless you can prove it from my words – not your “private” interpretation of them.

Please notice: I haven’t called you names and neither have I misrepresented you words. I will post my answer to your second post later.

Yours for the Lord Jesus Christ and for His Holy Word,
George

Originally Posted by Renee

He has reached people (in his crude way) that perhaps could not be reached by anyone else.

Paul was crude of speech.

There is a world of difference between being "uncultured" or rough in speach, and being rude (ie. in the sense of slandering others and using unbiblical insults) or crude. One is just the person's personal style - which should never be the basis of our critiquing of his message - the other is sin. The Bible quite clearly teaches us to guard our tongues, not be crude in our speach (can't remember the exact terms used right now), and that we will give account of what we say to others.

The Bible also tells us to judge people by their fruits - doctrine and words are fruit. We are commanded to expose what is wrong - that would include exposing rotten fruit when it shows up.

Ephesians 5:3-4 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Funny how some reprove those who are reproving sin!...

[Jeff]

[QUOTE=Renee;2845]

Originally Posted by Jeff

I read his words and I do not get the same "thoughts" as you. I think you have put words in his mouth. Judge righteous judgment. Judge a man by his fruits. By their fruits you shall know them. So I wish everybody would just stop having as Dr Ruckman puts it; 'roast Ruckman'.

Geore may be "quick to jump on those who dare to even question Dr. Ruckman". But he would be quick to defend any brother who is in need of defending (when he knows him well). Brother Ruckman is known by me to be doing the ministery God has given him. He has reached people (in his crude way) that perhaps could not be reached by anyone else.

Paul was crude of speech.

My grandson is on the phone! I have lost my train of thought.

I don't know Dr. Ruckman, except by reputation. I do believe that only the Lord knows if he has reached more than he has turned away. I still remember how the pentecostals defended Jim and Tammy Faye with the same vehemence people defend Ruckman with. Paul used strong words when neccessary, I don't believe he was unneccessarilly rude among believers, or nonbelievers for that matter. Nor can I find where he defends rude, hurtful behaviour. I believe Paul simply told the truth, and that by "crude, contemptable" he saying that he didn't use a lot of flowery, powerful speech. I suspect Paul wouldn't be the type of pastor with the mesmerizing speaking skills people are seeking today.

It is strange how people will "read" words as suits them. Just as I'm accused of being "like-minded" with who-knows-who by Browilder. Perhaps you can tell me what was the point of George's post. What was with the conjecture about Jerry and Brother Tim? He really wasn't criticizing them? It is plain to me that George is not so concerned with defending Dr. Ruckman as he is with trying to silence those who would point out that his behaviour may not be Christlike and may be damaging the cause. Of course he does this by criticizing them, or maybe he just uses innuendo so that he can later say in effect, "I didn't say that, didn't you read what I said?"

How is what Jerry said

Um, how does that make his abusive remarks charitable - just because he said they were?

"dumping" on Dr. Ruckman. Is there any question that Dr. Ruckman has made uncalled for remarks? Is this any reason to come up with conjecture on Jerry's motives?

I don't know why I'm defending Jerry, or anyone else. But if Brother George has the right to defend Dr. Ruckman I believe I can defend the right of others on this forum to say what they believe.

[George]

From Jeff:

Originally Posted by George
Did you read my words? "what I get out of your words". It's not "what you "get out of my words" - It's - what did I say? I never once said (or intimated) "that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you" No, not once! Please don't put words in my mouth.

Jeff's reply:

Originally Posted by Jeff

Yes I read your words, and your words betray you. That was my point. Much speaking doesn't change things. On your say so we're not supposed to give our views on Dr. Ruckman if they're not positive.

Using your arguments I can't form a view on Jeremiah Wright, or say anything against him. So much for free and open discussions if you have your say.

Let’s “carefully examine" what you have said:

“Yes I read your words, and your words betray you.” (Could you please be more specific? It’s real easy to make accusations, but it’s much more difficult to spell them out and then back up what you say. HOW and in what way did my words "betray me”? Hmmm?)

"That was my point." ( Just exactly WHAT is your "point"? I have no idea what you are talking about - because {once again}, you are not being specific.)

"Much speaking doesn't change things." (How about making accusations doesn't make something true?) or "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" Galatians 4:16

"On your say so we're not supposed to give our views on Dr. Ruckman if they're not positive." (Once again - You are trying to put words in my mouth. Please quote what I said not, what you "think" I "mean". I have never said what what your are claiming I have said - you couldn't prove it if your life depended on it. Why are you and others so quick to condemn someone that you don't even know? Just exactly what is your problem? There are a lot more important subjects & issues on this Forum than "Barbecuing" Peter Ruckman!)

"Using your arguments I can't form a view on Jeremiah Wright, or say anything against him. So much for free and open discussions if you have your say." (Once more with feeling: WHAT arguments? Can't you ever be specific? Can't you see that you aren't thinking "critically" or logically? You can't just "throw out" words without having some context! What "arguments" have I ever made that would prevent you from forming judgments? You can think and believe whatever you want brother, but you keep missing my main point - and I'm beginning to feel like a broken record - Why are a few people on this Forum so adamant in their dislike of brother Ruckman that they never miss an opportunity to criticize him? Huh?)

2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

I'm done - for now.

[George]

Originally Posted by jerry

Speaking in a crude manner is still sin, and the Bible commands us to guard our speach and not be corrupt in it, so it does not matter what his background is.

"Speaking in a crude manner is still sin,"

Chapter & Verse Please?

[George]

Originally Posted by ziggy2sound4u

George,
I call upon you to read the Word of God (AV1611).
There are SPECIFIC commands by God on Christian conduct and appearances.

“Be not deceived; evil communications corrupt good manners.” (I Cor. 15:33)

“Abstain from all appearance of evil.” (I Thess. 5:22)

"If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his own tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain." (James 1:26)

When Dr. Ruckman uses such crude and vulgar language against his enemies (some of whom are brothers and sisters), he is going against the Word of God.

I humbly and prayerfully submit this.

Aloha brother,

Just a quick response: If Christians (brothers & sisters in Christ) correct God's Holy words they are not exempt from criticism just because they are Christians!

I have probably read about 75% of brother Ruckman's books, etc. (between 1968-1985) and listened to hundreds of hours of his preaching and teaching (between 1968-1980).

I have hardly ever heard him use his "rough" & "crude" language on anybody except Bible "correctors" (lost or saved).

How many books, articles, tapes, etc. of his have you seen, read, or heard?