[MC1171611]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

Well, that's not ALL it says:

Genesis 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. 25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

Noah got drunk and naked, Ham saw his father's nakedness, when Noah awoke he knew what Ham "HAD DONE UNTO HIM". Ham DID something to Noah, this strongly implies an act, which is more than a 'look'. If Ham only looked at him then how did Noah know it when he awoke?

An act of fornication is the likely conclusion (we are Bible believers so I need not run the references connecting drunkeness, nakedness and fornication), what are the other alternatives and explanations?

I didn't say that Ham didn't do something to Noah: in fact I strongly believe he did. However, that is not clearly laid out and so should be prefaced with some caution, especially when talking about interracial issues like this.

[Brother Tim]

MC said,

...everything that he says in his book is his belief backed up with Scripture.

MC, just because a teacher quotes Scripture verses to back up his belief does not make him right. I'm sure that you know that, but your sentence implies it.

Since all that is said about the act of Ham is said in Genesis 9:22-24:

And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without...And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

Where could homosexuality be seen here?! What I believe may have taken place is that Ham may have mocked his father to his brothers. Their reaction could imply this, and Noah's reaction could have followed after he learned what was said. To reach for more is adding to the story without support.

[MC1171611]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

MC said,
MC, just because a teacher quotes Scripture verses to back up his belief does not make him right. I'm sure that you know that, but your sentence implies it.

Since all that is said about the act of Ham is said in Genesis 9:22-24:
Where could homosexuality be seen here?! What I believe may have taken place is that Ham may have mocked his father to his brothers. Their reaction could imply this, and Noah's reaction could have followed after he learned what was said. To reach for more is adding to the story without support.

Read post 30 by Kiwi Christian about it. He laid it out pretty well.

[Brother Tim]

He laid it out pretty well.

I disagree. From his post#30:

Ham DID something to Noah, this strongly implies an act, which is more than a 'look'. If Ham only looked at him then how did Noah know it when he awoke?

How does he connect the missing pieces? Seeing his father naked then finding and telling his brothers about it IS a foul DEED/ACT. Question: How could Noah have awaken and immediately determined that it was Ham that committed an act? Without being very crude here, how could Noah even have understood what act had been done?!

A more rational understanding was that Noah awoke, heard about the words of Ham (whatever they were) from his other sons, and then cursed Ham's son. Ham had shamed his father and therefore his son would be shamed. The phrasing of "awoke, ...and knew..." could allow for time to have passed.

[MC1171611]

The fact is that Noah had something done to him, by Ham, that could be noticed upon waking. How he knew Ham had done it, I don't know. But those are the facts.

Now, being that I'm completely "straight," have never been in a homosexual relationship nor have had homosexual relations with anyone, and I'm happily married and have no intentions of sexual conduct with anyone else, especially males, I'm not sure exactly how everything feels with regard to sodomy. However, being that it's an unnatural and disgusting act, there are doubtlessly effects and feelings after the fact that Noah would have recognized. Therefore, I think it safe to assume that Noah, upon waking, felt an uncomfortable and unwelcome sensation in an area of his body where there should not be such a sensation, and through a process of deduction (perhaps he remembered something going on with Ham while he had been in a stupor) he realized that Ham had DONE something to him. Looking is not DOING something to him: it had to have been some sort of physical act. The fact that Ham's descendants' main problem is sexual (Japhethites are greedy and power-hungry; Shemites are prone to religious issues), combined with the situation, points to sexual impropriety with his father.

Sorry for the graphic nature of this post; I think the point needed to be made based on the issue at hand, however.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

How does he connect the missing pieces? Seeing his father naked then finding and telling his brothers about it IS a foul DEED/ACT.

I don't believe seeing is the act here, and the Bible itself intreprets the word "saw" of verse 22 as "done" in verse 24. Also, if Ham was merely looking upon his father's nakedness, and mocking him to his brothers (which is speculation and nowhere in the verses), then is that worthy of a curse?

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Question: How could Noah have awaken and immediately determined that it was Ham that committed an act? Without being very crude here, how could Noah even have understood what act had been done?!

How he knew it was Ham we don't exactly know, but if it was an act of fornication Noah would know immediately when he "awoke from his wine", as has been described by the previous poster. Hence why I side with that notion.

Another solid reason why Ham's act was likely fornication is because the expression "uncovered" from Genesis 9:21 is defined in Lev 18 & 20 as an intimate relationship involving sex. Note Deut 27:20 and Lev 18:18, where "uncovering" is the equivalent of the act of fornication - excerpt from Ruckmans Genesis commentary pgs 251-252.

[scott]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

Well, that's not ALL it says:

Genesis 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. 25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

Noah got drunk and naked, Ham saw his father's nakedness, when Noah awoke he knew what Ham "HAD DONE UNTO HIM". Ham DID something to Noah, this strongly implies an act, which is more than a 'look'. If Ham only looked at him then how did Noah know it when he awoke?

An act of fornication is the likely conclusion (we are Bible believers so I need not run the references connecting drunkeness, nakedness and fornication), what are the other alternatives and explanations?

I agree this was not, I don't believe, a homosexual act, but an act of adultery and the documentation would be:

Leviticus 18:6-8 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD. 7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

Leviticus 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Why he curses Canaan, I assume, is Prophetic

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by scott

I agree this was not, I don't believe, a homosexual act, but an act of adultery and the documentation would be:

Leviticus 18:6-8 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD. 7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

Leviticus 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

An act of adultery? Nice try, BUT the nakedness of Noah is plainly defined in the text as his own nakedness and not that of his wife.

Genesis 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

Noah was plainly drunk and naked, his two sons covered his naked body with a garment. The Leviticus application of Noah's wife being his nakedness does not fit in this context.

[Brother Tim]

Kiwi said,

(which is speculation and nowhere in the verses)

And claiming a homosexual act isn't speculation??

MC claimed,

The fact that Ham's descendants' main problem is sexual

Talk about wild speculation!

Scott "speculated",

I agree this was not, I don't believe, a homosexual act, but an act of adultery

Clearly wrong by the verse evidence.

The REAL FACTS are that we JUST DON'T KNOW exactly what happened, and adding to where the Scriptures are silent often leads to erroneous conclusions.

[George]

Originally Posted by aussiemama

I will add one more thing...I don't know how interracial couples manage...my husband and I are in a cross cultural marriage (both European) and even that is hard enough!

Aloha Aussiemama,

It's all very simple really. My wife and I have been married for 47.5 years and in all of those years I have never seen another couple that are of "One Mind" and of "One Heart" as we are.

#1. We are from different "races": She = Filipina & I am Caucasian.

#2. We are from different "cultures": She = Filipino/Hawaiian & I am New England/American.

#3. We were both very "young": she = 17 was years of age & I was 20.

#4. We both came from different "religions": she was Roman Catholic & I was a fairly new Bible believing Christian (no particular "Denomination").

We didn't have "3 strikes" against us - We had 4 "strikes" against us!

How did we make it? LOVE & GRACE! First of all, there has been God's love and His grace - in that around three years after we were married my wife got saved (received the Lord Jesus Christ as her personal Saviour), which solved any of the differences that existed between us {we both now had "the mind of Christ"}.

Secondly, we both have never let anything or anyone come between us! That means houses & lands; money, bank accounts, or possessions. It also included: mothers & fathers; sisters & brothers; aunts or uncles; children or friends. We have been ONE, not only in flesh, but also in heart and in mind.

The order of our "priorities" are: God First (in everything); Our marriage second (before children & friends); and everything else in their order. In 47 years of marriage, I can honestly say that the word "DIVORCE" has never entered my mind - No not once!

In the last 10 years we have had perfect strangers (mostly women) come up to us and exclaim: "You look so happy together"; or "When I see you together, it makes me feel so good"; or "I am encouraged about my marriage when I see you both together"; etc. My wife and I have been sitting in a restaurant and a woman (a perfect stranger) has come up to her and said: "have you ever seen the way he (me) looks at you?"

Why do suppose it has been this way for 47+ years? Because it was genuine "love" to begin with, and there was a definite "commitment" on both of our parts to MARRIAGE (God's Institution) FIRST, and each other SECOND. And whenever our love and devotion to each other may have "faltered" (and it has on a very few occasions), our COMMITMENT to God and to our marriage (God's Institution) has carried us through.

My wife is the closest woman that I have ever met to beineg God's "perfect" woman {Proverbs 31}. I have never met another Christian couple that are as "close" together as we are. I'm sure they are out there - It's just in the 50 years that I have been saved, I personally have not seen it.

If your "priorities" are right {as a couple}, you can overcome all "obstacles". If you allow "anything" or "anyone" to come between you {as a couple} you're going to have "problems".