[CKG]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha CKG,

Your handling of my words is a huge disappointment to me. Please read what you did.
I said: "Paul contrasts "faith" and "works" in several of his Epistles" - NOT "Paul contrasts "the gift of faith” with works." as you so cleverly manipulated my words!

WHY do Christians DO THIS? WHY must you CHANGE what I said? I never said that "Paul contrasts the “gift of faith” with works" (you ADDED words to what I said). I very clearly said that "Paul contrasts "faith" and "works" in several of his Epistles, and then I went on to say "so it makes perfect sense" {for us} "to contrast the "GIFT" of "faith" with "works." If you don't understand what I was saying, don't CHANGE it to make it understandable to you (I am sure that there are many on the Forum that understand exactly what I said - and if you didn't, you should have asked me {like brother Winman} rather than manipulate my words). And for the record, I never made the "claim" that Paul ever used the term “gift of faith”.

Have you read ANY of Steve Rich's Posts? Have you taken any time to honestly research the other side of this issue? Or are you determined, at any cost, to push your point of view - even if it means twisting my words to suit your purpose?

Perhaps you didn't "mean" to CHANGE my words or twist, or wrest them, or take them out of context - but that is, in essence, what you did. I try real hard not to read "meaning" into the words of other people, or change their words to suit my own purposes, I would appreciate it, if, from now on, you would have the courtesy to do the same to me.

I know there is risk when you're sending emails or posting to a forum because you can't see the person you're "conversing" with so it is easy to be misunderstood so please believe me when I say it is not my intention to twist your words or manipulate what you've said. That's not who I am and I'm not interested in getting into personal attacks. Based on your posts I have gained much respect for you or as much as a person can get to know someone in such a forum. What I saw was:

{And by the way, the Apostle Paul contrasts "faith" and "works" in several of his Epistles, so it makes "perfect sense" to contrast the "GIFT" of "faith" with "works".}

I erroneosuly read your intentions so please forgive me if I have offended you. Having said that I see no benefit in carrying this thread any farther. You have what you believe on this matter and there are others you have referred to who believe that way and I have what I believe on this matter and there are others I could refer to and I don't think either one of us going to change. I see no need in this turning into a multi-page thread with us saying the same thing over and over and not coming to a resolution. This is a great forum and I don't want to be a smudge on it.

I do have a final thought, so please read, think about it and critique or respond as you see fit.

In Romans 3:20 Paul says that justification is not of works.
In Romans 3:27 Paul says that justification is not of works.
In Romans 3:28 Paul says that justification is apart from works.
In Romans 4:2,6 Paul says that justification is not of works.
In Romans 9:11 Paul says that election is not of works.
In Romans 9:32 Paul says that righteousness is not of works.
In Romans 11:6 Paul says that election is not of works.
In Galatians 2:16 Paul says that justification is not of works.
In 2 Timothy 1:9 Paul says that God's salvation and calling are not according to works.
In Titus 3:5 Paul says that salvation is not of works.
If Ephesians 2:9 means that salvation is not of works, this would be in harmony with all of these above passages. That salvation is not of works is repeatedly taught by Paul, but in no other place in the new testament does Paul ever say that "faith is not of works." Again and again Paul says that salvation (justification) is not of works, but he never says that faith is not of works.

[Winman]

Brother George

Thank you for the response you posted, I did find it very helpful, and I do see what you are saying to a degree. However, I have been thinking about this topic continuously since yesterday and a few questions came to my mind.

This is going to sound terrible, but if faith is:

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Now I do not doubt this verse whatsoever. I believe the Bible is the perfect infallible Word of God, and I really do not try to prove it to myself or others.

But as I started to say, this will sound terrible, but how could Jesus have faith? In John chapter 3 John the Baptist said this of Jesus:

John 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

I do not ask this to be contentious, this is a sincere question. If Jesus both saw and heard the Father, then how could this be considered faith?

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

In John 5:37 I get the impression that Jesus is implying he had heard the Father's voice and seen his shape. Perhaps I am wrong.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

And how could the disciples have faith? They saw Jesus perform numerous miracles, they witnessed his crucifixion, death, burial, and the resurrection.

Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

I have more questions, but this is enough for now.

[George]

"I know there is risk when you're sending emails or posting to a forum because you can't see the person you're "conversing" with so it is easy to be misunderstood so please believe me when I say it is not my intention to twist your words or manipulate what you've said. That's not who I am and I'm not interested in getting into personal attacks. Based on your posts I have gained much respect for you or as much as a person can get to know someone in such a forum. What I saw was:"

{"And by the way, the Apostle Paul contrasts "faith" and "works" in several of his Epistles, so it makes "perfect sense" to contrast the "GIFT" of "faith" with "works."}

"I erroneosuly read your intentions so please forgive me if I have offended you. Having said that I see no benefit in carrying this thread any farther. You have what you believe on this matter and there are others you have referred to who believe that way and I have what I believe on this matter and there are others I could refer to and I don't think either one of us going to change. I see no need in this turning into a multi-page thread with us saying the same thing over and over and not coming to a resolution. This is a great forum and I don't want to be a smudge on it."

Aloha brother CKG,

Since I am a crotchety old curmudgeon, I may have misread your intentions and motives; and I too may have misjudged your intentions and been too quick to get offended. For that I want to apologize to you also.

I am real "persnickety" when it comes to my words; and I guess, because of that, I get just an "inkling" of how God must feel when someone "messes" with His words.

I have appreciated your Posts on the Forum, and although we may disagree on this issue I see no reason for there to be animosity between us. This is not one of those doctrines that should separate brethren (at least not in my Book).

I have not disregarded what you have presented in support of your belief - you have some strong points to support what you believe, just as I believe that I have some strong points in favor of what I believe. However I believe that we are of the "same mind" on most of our doctrines, and I know that we have the SAME LORD and that we believe the SAME BIBLE, so I'm more than willing to let bygones be bygones and let sleeping dogs lie.

I am going to continue trying to answer brother Winman's questions, and should you decide to chime in, I'll try not to be as easily offended. And now that you see that I may be a bit "hyper-sensitive" about my words, perhaps when you quote them you might be a bit more careful how you present them.

I see no reason for this "misunderstanding" to drive a "wedge" between us, or to prevent us from discussing this or any other doctrine in the future. Christian brethren should be able to discuss these issues without getting angry or upset {something I have to be more careful about}; and as long as we stick to the issue we shouldn't have any problems.

Aloha nui loa with all sincerity.

Yours for the Lord Jesus Christ and for His Holy word,
George Anderson

[George]

Aloha brother Winman,

I hope that I have not become the source of your confusion. I am going to answer some of your questions soon (I have been kind of busy lately - getting ready to grow some veggies, etc. and having Printer "problems") but perhaps I haven't made myself clear about something.

I hope what I am about to say doesn't add to your confusion.

1. "We have the mind of Christ" [1 Corinthians 2:16] - BUT we still retain our own mind, which can be corrupted. [2 Corinthians 11:3] God did not replace my mind.

2. "God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your {our} hearts [Galatians 4:6]- BUT our hearts can still be wicked, deceitful and evil. [Jeremiah 17:9 & Ecclesiastes 9:3] God did not give me a "new heart" - NOT YET.

3. The Holy Spirit lives within us [2Corinthians 1:22; Galatians 4:6; 1John 3:24] - and YET our spirit can get "filthy" [2Corinthians 7:1] God did not replace my spirit.

4. We have been "made free from sin" [Romans 6:14-18] - BUT we still sin. [1John 1:8-10] In all of history ONLY ONE man EVER WAS sinless.

5. We are members of His body, His flesh, and of His bones [Ephesians 5:30] - and yet our flesh gives us "fits" all of our life. [Romans Chapters 6, 7, & 8] No exceptions!

6. We have been given "the faith of Christ", who's "faith" (alone) saved us [Galatians 2:16, 3:22; Philippians 3:9; Ephesians 2:8-9] - and yet we still have (retain) our own "faith" [Romans 1:8; 1Corinthians 2:5; 15:14,17; 2Corinthians 1:24; 10:15; Ephesians 1:15; Philippians 2:17; Colossians 1:4; 2:5; 1Thessalonians 1:8; 3:2,5-7,10; 2Thessalonians 1:3] We are NOT justified by our "faith, we are justified "by the faith of Christ". [Galatians 2:16]

If I believed in psychiatry/psychology I'd say we were "Schizo", but since I don't believe in that hogwash I'll just say that we have "two natures" and as such that is where most of our problems lay with living an "overcoming" Christian life.

When we got saved God "gave" us a whole lot besides eternal life. We have to "access", or "exercise" those gifts that we have been given (and I don't mean tongues, signs, and miracles) or they will just sit there - available, but unused and untapped.

I am trying to illustrate that it is possible for God to have given us the gift of "the faith of Christ" and for us to have retained our own faith at the same time.

When we live by His faith, we cannot fail. Whenever we live by our "faith" we get in a heap of trouble.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

[Winman]

Brother George

Thank you for taking the time to make that post, I read it, but I will need to take some time to study it thoroughly.

There is no doubt that some scriptures say "faith in Christ" while many others say "faith of Christ". I see that but I had never made such a distinction before.

I still wonder why Christ would gently criticize his disciples for having little faith, if the faith they had was a gift from God. That really does not make a lot of sense to me.

Matt 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

This sounds terrible, but Peter might have answered, "Lord, you only gave me a little faith".


Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. 6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. 7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? 8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? 9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. 10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

This is a passage I have read many times over the years, and still do not quite understand. When the apostles asked Jesus to increase their faith, Jesus seems to make them responsible for their own faith

"If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you."

Perhaps the apostles should have said, "Lord, please give us more of your faith."

Now, I know you spoke earlier about the different dispensations, and this was before the Gospel went out to the Gentiles, but surely his apostles were believers, so I do not understand why they did not have the "faith of Christ".

I also have never quite understood how verses 7-10 relate to their original request in vs. 5, and Christ's answer in vs. 6. But the word "But" in vs. 7 clearly seems to tie this altogether.

Now I understand verses 7-10, when we obey Christ we should not think highly of ourselves, but realize we have done that which is our duty to do.

But I still don't understand how verses 7-10 relate to the apostles original request for the Lord to increase their faith.

And then sometimes I see both "faith in Christ" and "faith of Christ" used in a way that seems to show they mean the same thing. I saw this when I was reading some of the verses you listed in your last post.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

I know this is tedious for you, take your time if you wish to answer. I have been studying on my own as well.

Thanks again for your helpful responses to my questions.

Edit- Just had to add this, I always considered the phrase "faith of Christ" to point to the object of Christ's faith which is the Gospel. It would be no different than if I said the "faith of George" (meaning YOU), your faith or belief is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Winman]

Here is another passage where Jesus seems to make a lack of faith the responsibility of his disciples.

Matt 17:14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying, 15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. 16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. 17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. 18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. 19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? 20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. 21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

What is striking to me about this passage is that the disciples had been casting out devils and healing the sick for some time after Jesus had given them power to do so. So you would have thought their faith would have increased with each success.

[peopleoftheway]

Brother Winman, If I may.

I still wonder why Christ would gently criticize his disciples for having little faith, if the faith they had was a gift from God. That really does not make a lot of sense to me.

Matt 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

This sounds terrible, but Peter might have answered, "Lord, you only gave me a little faith".

When Peters faith was so little, that Christ had to say to him "O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt" the doubt was in himself, he was thinking as a man, acting as a man, instead of trusting that Christ was faithful enough, NOT to let Peter drown, he is saying to him , "Its me, the Lord your God! I can do anything and you can do nothing without me", if any of the disciples had a vast measure of faith in themselves it was worthless unless they believed that Christ was faithful enough to deliver his promise. The Lord would have not said to Peter "O thou of little faith" if he had believed Christ was faithful enough to not let him drown.

Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. 6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. 7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? 8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? 9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. 10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

This is a passage I have read many times over the years, and still do not quite understand. When the apostles asked Jesus to increase their faith, Jesus seems to make them responsible for their own faith

Of course brother we are responsible for our own faith, I think you are missing what we are saying in this thread. While you and I have a responsibility to Christ as faithful servants and witnesses, we stumble, we fall, we get discouraged and downtrodden in our own lives and in our own faith, does this mean that we are slipping away from Christ and eternal life? God Forbid! Every man had their own measure of faith, personal faith, but If we all have separate measures of faith does that discriminate against one another as "better" believers? God Forbid again.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The faith that Christ has IN US (The Faith OF Christ) is our measure equally, so that while we struggle and lose faith in part, Christ remains the same, Faithfull and True!


1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

[CKG]

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jude 3)

Jude exhorts us to contend for “the faith”. “The faith” here refers to our beliefs which of course are based on the word of God.

My take on Galatians 2:20.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20)

The life I now I live by “the faith” of the Son of God. “The faith” here refers to the beliefs as set forth in Scripture concerning my being crucified with Christ. Because of what Jesus did for and to and in me the following apply to me.

I have peace with God.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Romans 5:1)

My sins have been forgiven and washed away.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (Colossians 1:14)

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (Revelation 1:5)

I am a new creature.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(2 Corinthians 5:17)

I’m in God’s family.
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God (Ephesians 2:19)

I’m in the kingdom of God’s Son.
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (Colossians 1:13)

My citizenship is in heaven.
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: (Philippians 3:20)

I have been made the righteousness of God
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:19)

I’m indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13)

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? (1 Corinthians 6:19)

I have been baptized into the body of Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

I am dead to sin.
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:1-11)

I will one day get a body like Christ’s.
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself (Philippians 3:21)

This is “the faith” I live by and it's just a portion of all Jesus has done for me.

[Winman]

POTW, you said:

When Peters faith was so little, that Christ had to say to him "O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt" the doubt was in himself, he was thinking as a man, acting as a man, instead of trusting that Christ was faithful enough, NOT to let Peter drown, he is saying to him , "Its me, the Lord your God! I can do anything and you can do nothing without me", if any of the disciples had a vast measure of faith in themselves it was worthless unless they believed that Christ was faithful enough to deliver his promise. The Lord would have not said to Peter "O thou of little faith" if he had believed Christ was faithful enough to not let him drown.

I think some here misunderstand me as well. I am quite aware that Jesus is the object of our faith, we are to look at Jesus and not to ourselves. I have always known that Peter took his eyes off of Jesus, "But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid". I understand this well. And I actually see this as a very comforting passage, for I know all too well that I myself, often let a situation frighten me, as when my shop closed several years back and I was out of work. That can be a discouraging and even a little frightening experience when jobs are hard to find. So it is comforting to know that even the disciples who saw Jesus in person (that alone I cannot comprehend) sometimes were afraid. And I can honestly say at that time that I reminded myself of how God has promised to care for us and I did not worry. In 6 weeks I found a new job and in just 4 years I am making nearly 50% more than I was. I thank the Lord always for taking good care of me, he has proved it to me many times.

My questions are concerning "imputed faith", which I have never heard of before. Now, I realize that faith comes from God, but I have always believed faith came from hearing the Word of God.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This verse is very specific, it does not say faith is a gift. It says faith comes by hearing.

So, I do agree faith comes from God, but I have always believed it came through hearing and believeing God's Word (and still do). But righteousness is imputed to us, it is put on our account. And the Bible specifically says that. When God looks at us he sees Christ's righteousness. And this righteousness is not incomplete or imperfect.

But I have never seen "imputed faith" in the Bible, that alone makes me careful to accept this doctrine.

And we have seen several instances where Christ pointed out lack of faith, and the language certainly (to me anyway) seems to indicate the fault is with the believer.

What I am saying, is that if faith is a gift, it does not seem right for God to criticize someone for having little faith.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

These verses here clearly (to me) say that faith is a person's own responsibility. I can understand vs 7 to mean nothing else.

My understanding is very similar to CKG's last post (#38).

[peopleoftheway]

A young Child standing on a wall, her father is below and shes says "daddy if I jump, will you catch me ?" the father says "yes of course I will catch you I would never let you fall", the Girl has the utmost faith that if she jumps her father will be there to catch her, the father has the utmost faith that he will catch her, but if the child's faith has wavered and she becomes afraid to jump, the father encourages her, because he has faith enough for both of them that he will catch her, that faith will strengthen her to jump, so while the child may have lost some of that faith to jump, her fathers unwavering faith encouraged her to jump. So she has received his faith because she believed him.

This isn't a horrible new doctrine that we and those who believe in the "Faith Of Christ" are trying to impart, its a Bible study I had never seen before until My eyes were opened to it not more that 4 days ago when I wrote the Post.
There is a difference doctrinally from "Faith in Christ" and "Faith of Christ"
The obvious removal in modern versions of "Faith of Christ" and replacement by "Faith in Christ" testifys to me that there IS a difference to be discovered.


I'm not a smart or educated man by no means, I cant explain things how I ought to or how I wish to explain them that Brethren may see where I am coming from. But I see this in scripture, it is a new light that has shined on me from Gods word, I pray that one day you see it as clearly as I do.