[George]

[quote=Tandi;17034]

Proverbs 30:25: The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer;

Shalom,

Tandi

Tandi,

If, by citing this one Scripture, you are saying that "ants" are EQUAL to people (men & women), then your misuse of the verse shows a complete lack of discernment on your part. If, on the other hand, you are just trying to be "clever", then it demonstrates that you ignored every single Scriptural point that I made in my Post (concerning geologist's misuse of the Holy words of God), in order to try to prove your point.

When I said {"For your information – a dog is not a "person" (it is not “someone”, i.e. "people")"; and - "They were all “pets” not “people”; and - "I repeat – A DOG IS NOT A "PERSON"! Dogs DO NOT have "souls" - like us! They DO NOT have "spirits" - like us! They DO NOT have "hearts" or "minds" - like us! They CANNOT discern the difference between "good & evil" - like us! They have NO "conscience" - like us! They are NOT going to spend eternity, either with the Lord, or in the Lake of Fire!"} Didn't I make it crystal clear that I was comparing dogs (ALL ANIMALS) with HUMAN BEINGS?

Geologist made the ridiculous (unscriptural) claim (from his "heart" - NOT from the Bible) that "Animals are little furry people, each with their own individual personality traits, shortcomings and attributes. They too ARE living souls, in their own right. They are capable of love and hate. They can be jealous or angry; they can be loving and nurturing." He was clearly saying that "animals are like human beings (i.e. "people") - NOT ANTS!

Geologist was not comparing dogs to ANTS! Geologist was comparing dogs with people (human beings); and making the FALSE CLAIM that "animals are little furry people" (like human beings) - with many of the same attributes that we (human beings) have. I simply pointed out that his private opinion does not line up with the Holy words of God - which he has proven to have very little regard for, when he openly denies what God said, and then ADDS to, and CHANGES the Scriptures to suit his own private interpretation.

Just in case you think your clever subterfuge negates what I stated - read the verse again: [Proverbs 30:25: The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer;] The verse DOES NOT SAY: "Ants are people" - It says "the ants are A PEOPLE"! I said "a dog is NOT A PERSON"! Are you saying they are? I said dogs (& animals) are "pets NOT people" (human beings - I didn't say "a people"!). Are you claiming they are? When I said "A DOG IS NOT A "PERSON"! Dogs DO NOT have "souls" - like us! They DO NOT have "spirits" - like us! They DO NOT have "hearts" or "minds" - like us! They CANNOT discern the difference between "good & evil" - like us! They have NO "conscience" - like us! They are NOT going to spend eternity, either with the Lord, or in the Lake of Fire!" Do you disagree with anything that I said?

Could I have been any clearer? I was comparing dogs (all animals) with human beings; and any honest person knows that quite well. I repeat (for your & geologist's benefit) Animals are NOT people (human beings)! And to "equate" them with us (HUMANS) is Humanistic rubbish and UNSCRIPTURAL. We EAT ANIMALS (some folks even eat ANTS!) - WE DON'T EAT PEOPLE!

Doesn't it bother you at all that geologist cited the wrong source (when he quoted Scripture); DENIED a clear statement of Scripture; CORRECTED the Bible; CHANGED the Holy words of God; and TWISTED Gods words in order to justify his personal opinion?

It's one thing to love your pet, it's quite another when a Christian says about his dog: "He was my best friend"! Someone is out of balance. Something is out of order. My very "BEST FRIEND" is the Lord Jesus Christ. My dearest and closest friend, that I have here on earth, is my wife (I wonder how geologist's wife feels about his dog being his "best friend"? Hmmm?). I have several very good Christian friends that I hold very dear in my heart - NO DOG ever came close to these relationships, and NO DOG ever will!

Christians have to keep their "PRIORITIES" straight. ALL the dogs in the world are not worth ONE HUMAN SOUL! I will even go further - ALL the animals in the world are not worth ONE HUMAN SOUL!

Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Luke 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

If a single soul (a human being) is worth more than the "whole world", then it certainly is worth more than ALL the dogs in that world!

[chette777]

George,

Your replies have been an eye opener on many levels to some of us. I want to thank you for taking the time. even though you were clearly frustrated. some of your points and observations opened my eyes on other levels of Bible use, misuse, and even malpractice of Scripture application.

Many Mahalao's Brah for letting us learn from your wisdom.

God's blessing you with wisdom and strength.

My point in quoting Proverbs 30 was that the word “people” does not necessarily mean “humans.” Why was Geologist not given an opportunity to clarify his remarks before such a cruel denunciation and diatribe? And even if his views differ from those of others, must we all walk in lockstep in our understanding of the Bible?

The persecution heaped on Geologist leads me to take his Ruin-Reconstruction research more seriously, just when I was tending to dismiss it due to some of the counterpoints offered on another thread. I appreciate ministries that “think outside the box” of religious dogma, while fully accepting the authority of the Scriptures.

I can see how a dog can be “man’s best friend” when people (the human kind) can be so heartless sometimes. Special pets DO give and receive love.....and never judge us or question our devotion to God.

Shalom,

Tandi

Originally Posted by geologist

My Avatar is a picture of my dog, Zorba. He passed away February 8th after a good life of 12 years. He died in his sleep. I buried him out in the desert.

I had thought about changing my avatar after he passed away, but I have now decided to keep it. His picture reminds me of the love he gave.

Even this morning I still grieve his loss...

Well Geologist, I just want to say sorry about your dog.
After our last one died (Boxer), I decided no more for me but I realize people can get attached to them. God bless...

[George]

Originally Posted by Tandi

"My point in quoting Proverbs 30 was that the word “people” does not necessarily mean “humans.” Why was Geologist not given an opportunity to clarify his remarks before such a cruel denunciation and diatribe? And even if his views differ from those of others, must we all walk in lockstep in our understanding of the Bible?

The persecution heaped on Geologist leads me to take his Ruin-Reconstruction research more seriously, just when I was tending to dismiss it due to some of the counterpoints offered on another thread. I appreciate ministries that “think outside the box” of religious dogma, while fully accepting the authority of the Scriptures.

I can see how a dog can be “man’s best friend” when people (the human kind) can be so heartless sometimes. Special pets DO give and receive love.....and never judge us or question our devotion to God.

Shalom, "

Tandi

Aloha sister Tandi,

I will try one more time to get my point across.

"My point in quoting Proverbs 30 was that the word “people” does not necessarily mean “humans.” Why was Geologist not given an opportunity to clarify his remarks before such a cruel denunciation and diatribe? And even if his views differ from those of others, must we all walk in lockstep in our understanding of the Bible?

Please read through the Posts again. Geologist was "given an opportunity" to "clarify his remarks", and all he did was make a bad situation worse! He went from stating his personal opinion about a matter, (which was in error and contrary to the Scriptures) to - DENYING, CORRECTING, CHANGING, and ADDING to the Holy words of God! WHY can't you see that? Your "point" was irrelevant, because it had nothing to do with the issue - which was: geologist was claiming that his dog (and other animals) possess some of the SAME ATTRIBUTES AS PEOPLE (human beings) - which, according to the Bible, is UNTRUE. What is so hard to understand about that? The fact that ANTS are called "a people" has no bearing on the subject under discussion - at all.

Geologist made his comments (His original Thread) on 3/15/09. After 11 Posts by others (3/16/09), I made my comments in regards to "speculation" and to the truth about the attributes of men as compared to those of animals. I only stated the TRUTH - that's all that I did (re-read the Posts). I never "attacked" geologist; or judged him; or questioned his "devotion to God".

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

My wife tried to console geologist with her Post (3/16/09), and after quoting two verses in reference to the future, she forgot to include the word earth in her final comment (but the word was in one of the verses that she used in empathizing with geologist). {I didn't know (at the time) that she even made the Post.}

Up to this point, everything was "hunkydory". Everyone, who was interested, had made their point, and I (for one) was willing to leave it at that. BUT - geologist came back (3/16/09) with his unscriptural reply, wherein he DENIED the Holy words of God {"NAY"); and then CHANGED them to suit his private interpretation; and then ADDED to them to suit his purposes.

Can you not see WHAT he did? Do you not understand the gravity of WHAT he did? Do the Holy words of God mean so little that we can DENY them; CHANGE them; and ADD to them whenever we please - because we may have a "good end" in mind, or because we want to support our own private opinion on an issue? I trow not!

Your reply to geologist was: "What a beautiful story! I agree with everything you said, and can relate. Good thing your comfort comes from the LORD and Scripture and not us miserable comforters here, myself included. " Although it truly was a touching story, geologist had DENIED God's word; CHANGED it; and ADDED to it in order to support his "feelings" about his dog. {"'I'm not going to argue doctrine on this matter, but I will speak what I know in my heart."} In other words, he not only disregarded God's Holy words - He DENIED the truth of them and then CHANGED God's words to justify himself.

What a person "knows" from their heart is NOT always the SAME as the "Scripture of truth".

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Even after geologist made his blasphemous claims I was going to let them slide (since I already had ascertained, from some of his Posts, that he indulges in a lot of "speculation" - when it comes to the Scriptures). It was only after he took his "cheap shot" at my wife ("straining at gnats"), that I decided to reply to his shoddy treatment of my Bible.

There are a few things that get "my dander up": #1. Denigrating my Lord; #2. Corrupting His Holy word; #3. Criticizing, casting aspersions, or impugning my wife. And #4. Criticizing, casting aspersions, or impugning my friends. And geologist "crossed the line" on half of them.

My reply (3/18/09) to geologist was in the form of a rebuke (for CORRECTING the Holy words of God) and a reproof about his hypocritical attitude towards my wife (for forgetting the word "earth") - while he was CHANGING the words of God. {Which is more important - FORGETTING or CHANGING?}

Your reply to me was a disappointment, because, by some of your Posts, I expected better from you. To take one single, solitary verse (out of the context of the issue under discussion), and ignore the egregious error geologist is promoting, and all of the the rest of the points that I made, is incomprehensible to me. The Biblical principal is that a "LITTLE LEAVEN LEAVENS THE WHOLE LUMP".

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

To throw up one verse, as if it was applicable to the issue at hand, and without any comment, is a sign of immaturity (no matter how old one is). Practically everyone who has commented on this issue knew exactly WHO geologist was comparing his dog to (people - i.e. human beings), and no matter how you or geologist "feel" about dogs and other pets - they are NOT PEOPLE.

There is not an animal on earth that shares our unique attributes (other than the fact that animals have bodies and so do we - that is where the similarities end). To "think" that animals have "feelings" like we do, is not Biblically sound. All animals are incapable of loving God; knowing God; understanding spiritual matters; loving others as they ("love themselves"?); and a host of other human emotions, feelings, and thoughts.

In the course of 48 years of marriage, my wife and I have had at least 10 or more pet dogs (we had seven children). When the time came that those pets died don't you know that we were saddened and that our hearts were broken more than once because we loved and cared for them? Do you think that I am a "heartless" old curmudgeon? BUT, in all the time that we had those pets we never once ever thought of them AS PEOPLE! We never thought that they possessed some of the SAME ATTRIBUTES that we possess. I personally never thought of any one of our pets as "my best friend". They are "animals" after all - NOT PEOPLE.

I may be an old curmudgeon - but I'm not a "heartless" old curmudgeon, I am not "cruel" and I don't "persecute" people. As a matter of fact, I allow for a whole lot more "Christian Liberty" than most of the brethren. If you think that rebuking or reproving or admonishing a brother in Christ is "cruel", or that it is a form of "persecution", you need to read about real cruelty and persecution in the Holy Bible. Or you might consider reading Foxe's Book of Martyrs where Christians down through the centuries endured real cruelty and persecution!

Where would a Christian get the idea that a rebuke, or a reproof, or an admonishment is "cruel" or that those words are equivalent to "persecution"? I submit to you that our Humanistic "culture" teaches these things - not the Bible.

Whenever anybody on this Forum attacks or denigrates My Lord; His word; my wife; or my friends, you can be sure of one thing - as long as there is breath in my body, I will defend them with all my strength, and earnestly contend with the offender (man or woman - saved or lost).

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha sister Tandi,

Whenever anybody on this Forum attacks or denigrates My Lord; His word; my wife; or my friends, you can be sure of one thing - as long as there is breath in my body, I will defend them with all my strength, and earnestly contend with the offender (man or woman - saved or lost).

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

and thank you brother George. BIBLE TRUTH MATTERS!!!

[geologist]

Let's have some mercy here and put this thread down, like you would an old dog that needs to be put out of its misery.

Point: I was jumped because I called Zorba, “My best friend” because, according to the opinion of these brethren, I should have said Jesus was my best friend. Nobody gave me the benefit of a doubt that the context of the reference was my personal relationship with another living creature ON THIS EARTH.

Point: I have been accused of blasphemy and changing the Word of God because I made the remark concerning Song 8:6 when I said, “Nay, but love is stronger than death”.

I stand by that statement for this reason: God IS love. (see 1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16). And the Lord God's love on the cross was AND IS stronger than death. The words in Song 8:6 were penned BEFORE Calvary. My statement is true today.

Concerning any of the rest, we simply have a difference of opinion about animals. Certainly, they are not humans, but they are a 'people' (as Tandi correctly pointed out). Can they think and reason? Ask Balaam's Ass (Numbers 22:23). She certainly demonstrated care and concern and, when the Lord opened her mouth so she could speak, she expressed herself quite well. This was not a case of God playing a ventriloquist.

As for George's claim that I insulted his wife, this was not my intent and I apologize for the misconception. I merely wanted to point out that I believe that Isaiah 65:17 through 65:25 was describing the 1,000 years ON THE EARTH REIGN of the Lord Jesus Christ and this was NOT a description of the post millennial world that begins at Revelation 21. If George and his wife disagree with that, then so be it. We will just have to agree to disagree on that point.

Ok, I've said my peace.
Thank you.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by geologist

Let's have some mercy here and put this thread down, like you would an old dog that needs to be put out of its misery.

Point: I was jumped because I called Zorba, “My best friend” because, according to the opinion of these brethren, I should have said Jesus was my best friend. Nobody gave me the benefit of a doubt that the context of the reference was my personal relationship with another living creature ON THIS EARTH.

Brother this is my exact statement. In no way was I implying you loved your dog more than you do Jesus. I specifically said:

Please know my heart. In no way am I debating the issue or invalidating the way you feel. But your comment "He was my best friend" makes me think of this reality.

[George]

Originally Posted by geologist

"Let's have some mercy here and put this thread down, like you would an old dog that needs to be put out of its misery.

Point: I was jumped because I called Zorba, “My best friend” because, according to the opinion of these brethren, I should have said Jesus was my best friend. Nobody gave me the benefit of a doubt that the context of the reference was my personal relationship with another living creature ON THIS EARTH.

Point: I have been accused of blasphemy and changing the Word of God because I made the remark concerning Song 8:6 when I said, “Nay, but love is stronger than death”.

I stand by that statement for this reason: God IS love. (see 1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16). And the Lord God's love on the cross was AND IS stronger than death. The words in Song 8:6 were penned BEFORE Calvary. My statement is true today.

Concerning any of the rest, we simply have a difference of opinion about animals. Certainly, they are not humans, but they are a 'people' (as Tandi correctly pointed out). Can they think and reason? Ask Balaam's Ass (Numbers 22:23). She certainly demonstrated care and concern and, when the Lord opened her mouth so she could speak, she expressed herself quite well. This was not a case of God playing a ventriloquist.

As for George's claim that I insulted his wife, this was not my intent and I apologize for the misconception. I merely wanted to point out that I believe that Isaiah 65:17 through 65:25 was describing the 1,000 years ON THE EARTH REIGN of the Lord Jesus Christ and this was NOT a description of the post millennial world that begins at Revelation 21. If George and his wife disagree with that, then so be it. We will just have to agree to disagree on that point.

Ok, I've said my peace.
Thank you ."

geologist,

You can't leave well enough alone - can you?

Again, I would not have replied to this recent Post and let you continue justifying yourself, if it were not for the fact that you are still CORRECTING the word of God!

"Point: I have been accused of blasphemy and changing the Word of God because I made the remark concerning Song 8:6 when I said, “Nay, but love is stronger than death”.

I stand by that statement for this reason: God IS love. (see 1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16). And the Lord God's love on the cross was AND IS stronger than death. The words in Song 8:6 were penned BEFORE Calvary. My statement is true today."

POINT: Your statement wasn't just a harmless "remark", as you would have us think. Your reasoning in this matter is unscriptural! Solomon was NOT speaking about GOD'S LOVE! He was speaking about "human love" (look at the context!), and rather than seek understanding in this matter you just jumped to the conclusion that this verse must be WRONG (because it was written before Calvary?). By still standing by your former statement, and still saying "NAY" to God's words - you are STILL DENYING the truth of God's word (in this case) and rather than admit it, and correct your attitude, you continue to justify yourself, rather than just simply admit that you are wrong!

Your comments about Balaam's ass are way beyond comprehension! Do you really think that animals can "think and reason" like human beings - just because of this one miraculous account? Is this how we Christians are to "rightly divide the word of truth" - by taking one miraculous account (performed by God - contrary to all of nature) recorded in the Scriptures and then draw "general conclusions" from that account? I trow not! [Isaiah 28:10-13]

This is not just: "we simply have a difference of opinion about animals." If it were just simply a matter of "opinion", I would not have even commented on your Post. I have already read plenty of "opinion" and "speculation" coming from you in regards to the creation - and I never once commented on any of them. The problem is your "attitude" towards the Scriptures; and the fact that you ignored 90% of what I said in regards to your attitude towards God's Holy words, and instead justified yourself and made excuses for every erroneous and false thing that you said.

The rest of your excuses and alibis are just more attempts to "twist" words around and alter them; and make them say something other than what you first said. {This is something that Sophists do - NOT Bible believers - Not good!} With the exception of Tandi, all the rest of the brethren (that commented) understood what your inferences and comments were about, i.e. animals have many of the SAME ATTRIBUTES as people. It's too late to try and CHANGE what you said. {But it's not too late to admit that you are wrong.}

This reminds me of the "Title" to one of your former Threads: "Why is this not a contradiction?" When I first saw the "title I asked myself - WHY would a genuine Bible believer state or put forth a question concerning a Bible issue in such a manner? I now understand WHY!

Like I said before - you have lost all credibility with me, and you may rest assured that I will (from this point on) ignore everything you have to say, unless you continue to CORRECT the Bible, or there comes a day when you are willing to stop JUSTIFYING yourself. This is not a case of: "Let's have some mercy". It's a case of: "Judge righteous judgment". [John 7:14]

1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

God didn't say - if any man speak, let him speak from his heart whatever he thinks is true; and He certainly doesn't "approve" of Christians DENYING His Holy word in order to justify a "personal opinion". We are to "speak as the oracles of God" - NOT DENY them; CHANGE them; ADD to them; and then through subtle and clever "sophistry" JUSTIFY our pernicious acts.

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

The verse said: "For the word of the LORD is right" and that includes Song of Solomon 8:6 - regardless of the FACT that it was written before Calvary; and in spite of the FACT that you "think" that it is WRONG, and then had the audacity to DENY THE TRUTH (your word "NAY" - not mine), and then CHANGED it, and then ADDED to it!

I have a very simple rule (and have had since 1968) when a Christian says "NAY" TO God's Holy words - I say NAY TO THEM!

[geologist]

Originally Posted by George

geologist,

You can't leave well enough alone - can you?

James 3:6-10 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

1 Timothy 6:4-5 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

And I shall.