Doxa,

Let me commend you on your post. I also see the church in the tribulation. It is sometimes difficult to state something when almost eveyone else sees it the other way. But many times the multitude is wrong and the few are correct.

Of course, eveyone quotes the Bible in giving their interpretation. Some will scoff at your visions, saying it does not apply today. Regretabbly, many believers study the Bible as they study history, geography or mathematics. However, the Holy Spirit inspired the word and only the Holy Spirit can reveal or explain it.

Factually, I know that many who proclaim belief in the pre-tribulation rapture got the idea from books or from the churches they attend. Not many have actually read the Word with an open mind on this subject.

You are on the right track. Keep fighting the good fight of faith.

I am thinking of opening a thread on the subject of the rapture but I am hesitant.

strongmeat

[peopleoftheway]

There is a lot I would like to add to your post in comment, but I shall do it piece by piece, in a loving tenderhearted way from the get go.

Firstly in regards to the translation of the saints, the blessed hope, the "rapture", your words show where your mind is, you just don't see it yet. Let me show you.

So, as far as Jesus’ coming again, we must walk by faith, and we have not been given an exact calendar date,

If the translation was mid-trib, a timeline would be established, with the events surrounding the world it would be clear that it was the 2nd half of tribulation. The same principle exists for post tribulation, we would know the EXACT time the antichrist was revealed and therefore have a countdown of 7 years, people would be slack concerning salvation, knowing that the return wouldn't be for 7, 6, 5, 4 , years and so on and so on. The Church must be taken out of the way, so That GOD ALMIGHTY can finally judge Israel and "Be their God and they will be His people"


Second things is

There is something that bothers me, however, in a lovely concept of pre-rapture, is that Christians will not be prepared for hard times

All over the Globe as we speak, many many Christians are enduring tribulation, Paul spoke of this as it was to be expected.
Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Ask bro Chette or Biblestudent who are in the Philippines, ask any missionary in that region of the world and I am sure that they are enduring many hardships you and I cannot imagine. This an another argument I will use against mid-trib or post-trib, Christians ARE PREPARED armed with the Sword Of The LORD, whit such zeal and willingness to die for Christ, the antichrist's plans for this world would be hindered.

There are a few other things I would comment on, but I feel its better to leave that to a more learned brother.
I get the impression that you Love the LORD with all your heart, no doubt, but you appear to be all over the place in what you believe. Ground yourself would be my advice, go slowly, patiently.

[peopleoftheway]

Originally Posted by strongmeat

I am thinking of opening a thread on the subject of the rapture but I am hesitant.

There are quite a few Threads on the subject,

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190 is one

Hey guys,

You're midunderstanding what I'm saying.
I am 100% pre-trib. Not a doubt in my mind.

I am NOT asserting a mid-trib position.

What I am talking about is a possible mid-WEEK position, with the trib starting in the midst of the week.

NO dispensations are cut hard and fast.
There is ALWAYS a transition period between dispensations.
We see this in the book of Acts as God's program GRADUALLY shifts from the Jew to the church.

The first part of Daniel's week could be a possible transition period from the church back to the Jew culminating in the rapture of the church somewhere at the mid-week point.

There is much more scriptural evidence for this than to try and say that the whole week is the tribulation.

All the Scripture I've shown points to HALF the week as being the tribulation period.

I would be really interested in hearing George's thoughts on this.

[peopleoftheway]

Factually, I know that many who proclaim belief in the pre-tribulation rapture got the idea from books or from the churches they attend. Not many have actually read the Word with an open mind on this subject.

When I read My Bible I read it with the Holy Ghost and my mind wide open on EVERY subject.

I also see the church in the tribulation. It is sometimes difficult to state something when almost eveyone else sees it the other way. But many times the multitude is wrong and the few are correct.

Truth be told, In this Day and Age the pre-tribulation believers are in the minority

I will withdraw myself from this debate as I see where its going, I would not recommend opening another post regarding the translation as its tired out.
I know what I have Hope in, and I will not be swayed. On the other hand I do not wish to force my belief on the matter onto anyone else. I say this humbly and with most sincerity.


To Herami

the First half of tribulation is the beginning of sorrows. The second half is The "Great Tribulation"

Thats me, Im done on the topic

Dear People of the Way...you are one up on me for I have no idea where this topic is going. However, I don't see this quite as a debate, but a learning session. Everyone's input is helping me a lot to learn.
I have to admit, I feel very ignorant on this topic of End Times, but I am listening.
Thank you to all who have made this discussion very valuable.

I think what we must all understand, if people write something on forums, everyone can see it. One doesn't really have to defend it, everyone can see it.
People can sling mud, but everyone still knows what was written.

Thus far, on this topic for example, there might be varying opinions, but it is all good. Everyone here is in my opinion, very learned. That is why I appreciate it so very much!
Thanks everyone!

Thank you Strong Meat for your very kind words.

May God bless you all this day in Jesus.

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by herami

I am NOT asserting a mid-trib position.

What I am talking about is a possible mid-WEEK position, with the trib starting in the midst of the week.

NO dispensations are cut hard and fast.
There is ALWAYS a transition period between dispensations.
We see this in the book of Acts as God's program GRADUALLY shifts from the Jew to the church.

The first part of Daniel's week could be a possible transition period from the church back to the Jew culminating in the rapture of the church somewhere at the mid-week point.

There is much more scriptural evidence for this than to try and say that the whole week is the tribulation.

All the Scripture I've shown points to HALF the week as being the tribulation period.

Let me share my "unsolicited" opinion, Herami. I find myself (for the moment) in disagreement with the quote above.

1. Changing the term "mid-trib" to "mid-week" seems to be a subtle way of promoting mid-trib rapture. As we read in Daniel 9, the 70th week is for Israel in which the Body of Christ has no part.
2. Some dispensations appear to be cut "hard and fast". It looks like the Dispensation of Innocence was cut "in the day" that Adam eats the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the Dispensation of Conscience began immediately after that. The Dispensation of the Patriarchs seems to be cut by the Dispensation of the Law in Mt. Sinai. I think the Tribulation period is not a dispensation, but serves as a transition period itself, ushering the Dispensation of the Kingdom. If some would argue that this is a major "dispensation", then it's cut immediately at the Second Coming and replaced by the Kingdom Age.
3. In the Bible, the last half is not usually called "tribulation" but "great tribulation", and there is no verse in Scripture that says the first half is not "tribulation".

Hey, GREAT post, Biblestudent!
Lots of good, well-thought out points.

I appreciate you considering the things I was saying and responding to that.

I will post my thoughts on your points when I get more time.
This is the kind of dialogue I was hoping for!

Thanks again,
Chip

Hey Biblestudent. Sorry my reply took so long.

1. Changing the term "mid-trib" to "mid-week" seems to be a subtle way of promoting mid-trib rapture. As we read in Daniel 9, the 70th week is for Israel in which the Body of Christ has no part.

Why does it seem like a subtle way of promoting mid-trib rapture?
I certainly do not believe it is possible for the church to be here for God's wrath.


What makes you so sure that the trib is 7 years long? Especially with EVERY description of the trib besides Daniel's being HALF that length. And as far as Daniel's 7 years, there is no reason to think that all 7 years have to be the tribulation.

2. Some dispensations appear to be cut "hard and fast". It looks like the Dispensation of Innocence was cut "in the day" that Adam eats the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the Dispensation of Conscience began immediately after that. The Dispensation of the Patriarchs seems to be cut by the Dispensation of the Law in Mt. Sinai. I think the Tribulation period is not a dispensation, but serves as a transition period itself, ushering the Dispensation of the Kingdom. If some would argue that this is a major "dispensation", then it's cut immediately at the Second Coming and replaced by the Kingdom Age.

Good points here. However, if the tribulation is a transition as you speculate, then it works stronger for my point - the first half of the Daniel's last week NOT being the tribulation, but a transition back to the Jews and then the tribulation being for the Jews and NOT the church.

3. In the Bible, the last half is not usually called "tribulation" but "great tribulation", and there is no verse in Scripture that says the first half is not "tribulation".

I've also heard the teaching that there is a difference between the "tribulation period" and the "great tribulation."

Where is the Biblical evidence for such a division?