[Brother Tim]

George, you asked for evidence that Elihu falsely accused Job. I believe that there are several places within his diatribe, but this section stands out:

Job 34:35-37 Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom. My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men. For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

[Brother Tim]

Job 36:15-18 He delivereth the poor in his affliction, and openeth their ears in oppression. Even so would he have removed thee out of the strait into a broad place, where there is no straitness; and that which should be set on thy table should be full of fatness. But thou hast fulfilled the judgment of the wicked: judgment and justice take hold on thee. Because there is wrath, beware lest he take thee away with his stroke: then a great ransom cannot deliver thee.

Again, here Elihu indicates that if Job would just humble himself and come clean, then God would remove His suffering. He falsely claims that God has wrath toward Job.

Elihu is the epitome of the modern Bible College graduate. He presents a lot of truth but intermingled with arrogance and a total absence of personal life experience. He walks into the church and expects every gray-haired saint to sit at his feet in wonder.

[George]

Aloha Brother Tim,

Your quote:

"George, you asked for evidence that Elihu falsely accused Job. I believe that there are several places within his diatribe, but this section stands out:"

Job 34:35-37 Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom. My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men. For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

It is clear that you don't agree with Elihu's "assessment" Of Job's situation, but you must PROVE that he was WRONG - you can't just state that he was "wrong" (just because you disagree with him), you must demonstrate he was "wrong".

For instance: Elihu said: "Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom." Was he right or not? Let's see what God has to say:
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

WHO was God "answering"? God was "answering" Job (for some of the things that Job said previously.) - God wasn't "addressing" Elihu, He was addressing" ("answering") Job!

And again Elihu said: "For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God." WHO was Elihu talking about? JOB! Was he right or not? Let's see what God has to say:
Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
God is "answering" Job (for some of the things that Job said previously.) WHO is it that was "contending" (Job 40:2 - in "rebellion") with God? Job! WHO was it that was "reproving" God (Job 40:2 -"multiplieth his words against God .")? Why, according to God - it was none other than Job! And what is it that Job says ("answers") when he is rebuked of God?
3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

Job knew WHO God was talking (answering) to. Job knew WHO was being rebuked - for he instantly "fessed up" and then he "shut up".

How's Elihu doing so far? The way I see it - he's hitting 3 for 3. That's pretty good in baseball (100%).

And again you said:

Job 36:15-18 He delivereth the poor in his affliction, and openeth their ears in oppression. Even so would he have removed thee out of the strait into a broad place, where there is no straitness; and that which should be set on thy table should be full of fatness. But thou hast fulfilled the judgment of the wicked: judgment and justice take hold on thee. Because there is wrath, beware lest he take thee away with his stroke: then a great ransom cannot deliver thee.

"Again, here Elihu indicates that if Job would just humble himself and come clean, then God would remove His suffering. He falsely claims that God has wrath toward Job.

"Elihu is the epitome of the modern Bible College graduate. He presents a lot of truth but intermingled with arrogance and a total absence of personal life experience. He walks into the church and expects every gray-haired saint to sit at his feet in wonder."

You said that Elihu indicated: "that if Job would just humble himself and come clean, then God would remove His suffering." But can you not see that that is "exactly" what Job did? [Job 42:1-6] And that God then removed his suffering - "exactly" like Elihu said he would [Job 42:10-17]!

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

If that isn't "humbling himself" - I don't know what is.

Job 42:10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.
11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
13 He had also seven sons and three daughters.
14 And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Kerenhappuch.
15 And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.
16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.
17 So Job died, being old and full of days.

So far Elihu is batting 4 for 4 - still a 100% batting average!

And lastly you claim: "He falsely claims that God has wrath toward Job." But let us carefully see what Elihu actually said: "Because there is wrath, beware lest he take thee away with his stroke: then a great ransom cannot deliver thee." Elihu didn't say that God had "wrath toward Job"! Elihu was warning Job that "because there is wrath", Job better be awfully careful lest - "lest he take thee away with his stroke: then a great ransom cannot deliver thee."

The way I see it - Elihu is batting 5 for 5 - still 100%, and I think you owe Elihu an apology.

A careful reading of the verses has removed all of your concerns (about Elihu's veracity) and has demonstrated that contrary to what you thought Elihu "meant", he actually was right on in his assessment of Job's situation - just like I said in my last Post.

I have answered your objections to (or "evidence" against Elihu), and now perhaps you will answer my former query: "I can think of NO instance in the Bible that God “excused” a young man (NOT a child) of his sins because of his “youth” perhaps you can provide me with some examples?"

Can you provide me with some Biblical examples where God excused sin in a young man's life - because he was "young"? And if you cannot, will you at least admit that if Elihu got "a pass" from God - it wasn't because "he was young"?

[Brother Tim]

Brother George, you put words in my mouth and then ask me to prove that those words are true!

Where have I said that God "excused" Elihu's sin?

[MC1171611]

From what I've seen of Elihu (and I haven't made a study out of him up to this point, though I might...), it seems if as he had some wisdom and discernment; he kept silent for a long time, and even then he didn't really say a whole lot. He spoke with respect toward those older than him, and still seems respectful toward Job, even while rebuking him.

Unless I'm completely wrong (Bro. George?), it seems as if Mr. Elihu would be a pretty decent role model for Christian young men today. Slow to speak, speech seasoned with salt, knew the matter before he spoke it; and above all, he was respectful to those older than him (while I admit I struggle with that myself on occasion).

[Diligent]

Most importantly about Elihu is that God echos much of what he said and never rebuked him, although he rebuked the others. I'm just not "getting" why some people believe Elihu was off-base. What did he say that was wrong?

[George]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

"Brother George, you put words in my mouth and then ask me to prove that those words are true!

Where have I said that God "excused" Elihu's sin? "

Aloha Brother Tim,

I don't believe I ever actually accused you of saying: "that God "excused" Elihu's sin? I said - my quotes:

"The idea that God “excused” him or his supposed “faulty judgment” because of his “youth” won’t hold any water – at least not Scripturally. Since when does God “excuse” sin because a man (NOT a boy!) is young?"
And again:
"I can think of NO instance in the Bible that God “excused” a young man (NOT a child) of his sins because of his “youth” perhaps you can provide me with some examples?"
And again:
"Can you provide me with some Biblical examples where God excused sin in a young man's life - because he was "young"? And if you cannot, will you at least admit that if Elihu got "a pass" from God - it wasn't because "he was young"?

Each time that the word "excused" was used - I introduced it on my own, but technically I never said - that you said: "that God 'excused' Elihu's sin". However, if I have "put words in your mouth - I apologize. I certainly didn't mean to, since I don't like people putting words in my mouth!

You did say:

"The reason for not being included in the condemnation at the end of the book is the same as for why he was not answered by Job. It is found in 32:3 and 32:6, his youth. His accusations against Job are just as wrong, but he does not have the experience of age to qualify his speech as worthy of response."

The following is the Bible record concerning God's attitude towards Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar. Please note that God did not mention any "wrath" toward Elihu.

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.
10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

In speaking about Elihu you said: "His accusations against Job are just as wrong, but he does not have the experience of age to qualify his speech as worthy of response." I have proven (from the Scriptures) that Elihu was "right on" when it came to his assessment of Job's situation. And that is the reason Gos did NOT include him in His condemnation of Job's three friends.

You have said that: "His accusations against Job are just as wrong," and the reason God did not include him in His condemnation of Job's three friends is because: "he does not have the experience of age to qualify his speech as worthy of response." This is pure "speculation" on your part - you are reading into the Scriptures something that is not there, and something that you couldn't possibly prove.

If Elihu was truly guilty of what you accuse him of, he would have had to be included in God's wrath (regardless of his age) for he would have been guilty of the SAME SIN - "ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right". If Elihu was guilty, as you say he is, God would have been guilty of "respect of persons" - because He would have "excused" Elihu's sin because of his "young age".

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

IF Elihu was guilty of the SAME sins as Job's three "friends" (as you claimed) - then God gave him "a pass" because of his "young age. IF that is true - then God "excused" his sin because of his "young age". If that isn't "respect of persons", then I don't know what is! IF Elihu's "accusations against Job are just as wrong" - then God (in order to be "just") was obligated to treat him just exactly "the same" as Job's three friends (regardless of his age!).

That is why I have asked the question (for the third time): Can you provide me with some Biblical examples where God excused sin in a young man's life - because he was "young"?

[bibleprotector]

Originally Posted by Diligent

Most importantly about Elihu is that God echos much of what he said ... What did he say that was wrong?

"Suffer me a little, and I will shew thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf." (Job 36:2). This is Elihu's problem: presumption.

"Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" (Job 38:2). God directly speaks to Job, and God is showing that Elihu did not actually understand what he was talking about.

Since Elihu's words are Scripture, I think that what he was saying are truths, and are things we can use for doctrines.

[MC1171611]

Like my dad said yesterday when I broached this topic with him, there is little room for anyone to criticize ANY of Job's friends: they were better friends (they sat, silent and fasting, with Job for SEVEN DAYS!) than any one of us would probably be, to my chagrin.

However, I have to disagree with you, Bibleprotector; I do not believe that Elihu presumed anything. He claims to be speaking under the power of the Spirit (32:8) and like Bro. George pointed out, God seems to echo Elihu's statements. I believe that Elihu was 100% right in his approach to Job: he showed deference toward men of old age and he spoke with respect, and he was the only one in the whole mess that didn't get rebuked for anything by God.

Based on the evidence, I think we can fully absolve Elihu of any wrongdoing whatsoever (not that it was our place anyhow); at least God did so.

[George]

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

"Suffer me a little, and I will shew thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf." (Job 36:2) This is Elihu's problem: presumption.

"Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" (Job 38:2) "God directly speaks to Job, and God is showing that Elihu did not actually understand what he was talking about.

"Since Elihu's words are Scripture, I think that what he was saying are truths, and are things we can use for doctrines. "

Aloha brother bibleprotector,

I beg to differ with you here brother (just a little ). Here is what Elihu said:

Job 36:2 Suffer me a little, and I will shew thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf.
3 I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker.

4 For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.

All of us (at times) "speak” on behalf of God, and I don’t believe that it is “presumptuous” of us when we do. (That is why when we do “speak” - we better “speak” the TRUTH, the whole TRUTH, and nothing but the TRUTH!)

According to Elihu he was going to seek his knowledge from God <> “I will fetch my knowledge from afar”; he would give God the credit: <> “and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker”; he testified that what he was going to say was TRUTH <> “For truly my words shall NOT be FALSE”; and that God would testify to the hearer as to whether what Elihu said was TRUE or NOT <> “HE that is perfect in knowledge is with thee”.

Now if Elihu was “just as wrong” as Job’s three “friends”, then he wasn’t only guilty of their sin: “My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends:for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right,” He would have been guilty of LYING – because he claimed: “For truly my words shall NOT be FALSE”; and he claimed that he was receiving his knowledge from God - “I will fetch my knowledge from afar”.

This is why I have spent as much time on this issue as I have. The point that I have tried to make in these recent Posts and in my previous Posts - see: http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...40&postcount=1 http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...98&postcount=7 is that – I do not believe that all of the things that Jobs three “friends” said are “suspect”. All of the “factual” statements that they made about the creation; the fall of man; Adam; the Flood; or about the Nature and Character of God are TRUE. The only thing where they are found to be at fault is in their “judgment” about why God was allowing Job to be “tried”.

They “thought” it was due to “sin” in Job’s life, and so God was punishing Job for his “sin” – they misjudged God’s reasons for Job’s trials & tribulations (“ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right”) and that misjudgment kindled God’s “wrath” (which should be a warning to us when we judge a friend or another brother in Christ).

The point about Elihu is simple: If he was “just as wrong” in his judgment of Job and about God as Job’s three “friends”, he should have been included in their condemnation, (regardless of his age). If he was “just as wrong”, he also would have been a LIAR! {“For truly my words shall not be false”} I believe that I have demonstrated (from the Holy Scriptures) that Elihu was NOT “just as wrong”, as Job’s three “friends”. I also think that I have shown from this Post that Elihu was NOT guilty of being a liar or of “presumption”, but that he was speaking the “Truth”.

You also said: "God directly speaks to Job, and God is showing that Elihu did not actually understand what he was talking about." My question for you is - if Elihu "did not understand what he was talking about", how is it that God verifies several things that he said? (see my previous Post #13 on this thread)