[MC1171611]

Originally Posted by Luke

Vince, you have a problem with that line of reasoning.

You are saying God loved, as in past tense, prior to the cross, and his love was demonstrated by the cross. So you are saying God loved the world (before the cross) so he sent his begotten son (to the cross).

But Psalm 5:5 is pre-calvary, and it's the only verse in the Bible that says God hates sinners.

So before the cross - on the one hand you have God hating sinners, and on the other hand, you have God loving the world (the world means the whole world - don't redefine it brother - it doesn't mean, some people of the world - there are none righteous and God is no respecter of persons). So which is it?

If Psalm 5:5 applies to the day of judgment when the wicked stand before that great throne, and God casts all sin away from Him and no sin dwells in His presence, then there is no problem with these verses.

Luke, I didn't redefine anything; I simply said that "world" is collective, as in God's whole human creation. Basically everyone, but in a more general sense. You'll see Paul speaking of God loving "us," but taken in context, that's the Church as a whole, the body of Christ (I personally believe).

I believe that God poured out His love for the entire human race on Calvary, even as He was pouring out His wrath on His Son. I believe that, at that moment, and even before Bethlehem, God loved Aussiemama and Vendetta and Atlas and Luke; and that He also loved Osama and Hitler and Ted Bundy and the atheists who sneer at Him. Were it not for that love, none of us would be saved.

Since Calvary, I believe that God does indeed hate sinners, or at least some sinners; His word says so. If you consider the magnitude of what He did at Calvary, it's obvious that He has nothing left to prove, and He owes the people who reject His Son nothing but Hell.

I believe in the "past tense" idea: God so loved the world. But, in John 17, Jesus even refused to pray for the world. I do not believe that God loves the people, in 2008, who reject and revile His Son.

And that's all I'm gonna say at this time. I know this is a subject that troubles Brother Atlas, and I do not care to grieve his spirit, or anyone else's, simply for the sake of expounding my own tiny understanding.

This matter can be, and has been, the source of much contention, and I do not wish to add to it for the umpteenth time.

God loved everybody that we will ever come in contact with. That should be enough to motivate us to take His word to them.

[atlas]

VR,


If Adolf Hitler would have turned to the Lord and been drawn by the Holy Ghost and turned to God and ask God to save him. God would have saved him from his sin and Hitler would be in heaven right now as we speak.



This is how much God's loves sinners. As evil as Hitler was, Jesus even died for him and it was God's perfect will for Adolf Hitler to get saved.


Atlas

[MC1171611]

Atlas, I haven't seen anyone say that God wouldn't save anyone. He simply, according to the Scriptures, doesn't love those people until they are "accepted in the beloved." If you have specific Scripture that says God loves sinners (present tense), then share it by all means. However, I have Bible verses that speak of God explicitly hating people in the present and past (perfect) tenses.

I just find it hard to believe, number one, that a holy, righteous God could love a wretched, Christ-rejecting sinner, and number two, that a God who did love them, could put them in Hell. If He's too holy to take them to Heaven without repentance, then how is He not too holy to love them without repentance?

Originally Posted by Here Am I

Actually, there's also Proverb 6:16-19

However, before we start to fuss, I'd like you to know that this very topic has been debated before, over at Cody's place, and it caused a lot of division and discord. It was not a situation that any of us should want to repeat.

That being said, I would like to know why this subject is being pursued, again. Many of us from that thread are now here...are we desirous of having the same thing happen here? Do we want to 'stir the pot' to see what happens?

I hope not, I believe most of us are mature enough to want to avoid sowing discord...

Here Am I hit the nail on the head. Folks, I still have trouble in the area of spite, and God has been working on me. I started this topic to "get at" someone who I know had the potential to get very upset on this topic. I know what happened on the other site with this issue. I did want to pick a fight. Right AFTER I posted, when it was too late, I remembered that there is a verse in the Bible (several of them in Proverbs actually) that say something like that only by pride cometh strife and contention. Wish I had remembered that BEFORE I posted.

I apologize for trying to pick a fight. I guess not all of us are "mature" enough yet. *Hangs head in shame*. Please forgive me guys, especially Bro Jamie as it is him I meant to hurt with this.

Pray that God helps me overcome in this area!

[atlas]

aussiemama,

I apologize for trying to pick a fight. I guess not all of us are "mature" enough yet. *Hangs head in shame*. Please forgive me guys, especially Bro Jamie as it is him I meant to hurt with this.

This is not a big deal. Every person on earth has done something for spite before, I know I have. You said you were sorry. That's all you can do. I said it was ok. No need to apologize again. I can only forgive you one time per issue. I'm also not the nicest guy in the world either. Trust me I understand how you are, I'm the same way. This is why we but heads at times. We are to much alike.

If you always dwell on some small mistake you made you will never get past petty mistakes and do something good for the Lord.

It's ok and you are a nice lady most of the time.



Atlas

Originally Posted by atlas

VR,


If Adolf Hitler would have turned to the Lord and been drawn by the Holy Ghost and turned to God and ask God to save him. God would have saved him from his sin and Hitler would be in heaven right now as we speak.



This is how much God's loves sinners. As evil as Hitler was, Jesus even died for him and it was God's perfect will for Adolf Hitler to get saved.


Atlas

Brother, you simply must not confuse my thoughts on this matter with the damnable, Hell-spawned notion of "limited atonement." I know that Hitler could have been saved. I know that it's God's will for everyone to be saved.

I never said or implied otherwise.

Originally Posted by aussiemama

Here Am I hit the nail on the head. Folks, I still have trouble in the area of spite, and God has been working on me. I started this topic to "get at" someone who I know had the potential to get very upset on this topic. I know what happened on the other site with this issue. I did want to pick a fight. Right AFTER I posted, when it was too late, I remembered that there is a verse in the Bible (several of them in Proverbs actually) that say something like that only by pride cometh strife and contention. Wish I had remembered that BEFORE I posted.

I apologize for trying to pick a fight. I guess not all of us are "mature" enough yet. *Hangs head in shame*. Please forgive me guys, especially Bro Jamie as it is him I meant to hurt with this.

Pray that God helps me overcome in this area!

Mama, all flesh is grass. You have your problems, and I have mine. (Mine are worse.) I appreciate your remarks, and think they reflect considerable growth in grace.

God bless you!

I posted this over on the other thread,
for others who may stumble on this in the future...

I have not commented on this thread until now, but I do feel it is important for the child of God to understand these difficult passages about hate, and I want to post something here that may help you understand. This is from my archives, I wrote it long ago. I don't care to argue about it, I taught this in adult Sunday School for many years and I came to this conclusion after study and prayer, and this is what God laid on my heart. If you don't agree with it, that's fine and I have no problem with you and I respect your views. I hope this helps anyone who may be struggling with this issue...

I believe it could be construed that God
has a love/hate relationship with sinners.

Yes, that's right---I think God both loves AND hates sinners.
Sometimes I feel that way about computers, LOL.
Why do I say this? Because that is exactly what I see in the Bible!

I guess the Fred Phelps family would have their own spin on this, but without taking it to those terrible extremes—it could be construed that God has a love/hate relationship with sinners.
The child of God does not have to agree or align himself with fanatics or offensive fringe groups to understand God's Bible. That said, It is important for us to understand this issue, so we can help others understand.

It is important to remember, that POSITIONALLY there is a different standing for the redeemed as opposed to unbelievers. Unbelievers are like a building destined for destruction—they are condemned already due to their unbelief (John 3:18). The unbeliever who is actively rejecting God's love is in a position of sin—he is the ENEMY OF GOD. "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Romans 5:10

It could probably be argued that the unbeliever is not only a sinner—but positionally
HE IS SIN.
We often hear "God hates the sin," well,—there you are.
Look carefully at the KJV text in this verse:
"For he hath MADE HIM TO BE SIN for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Corinthians 5:21

The unbeliever is not only is sinning, he is positionally titled "SINNER,"—he was made that way by Adam's sin.
"For as by one man's disobedience many were MADE SINNERS, so by the obedience of one shall many be MADE RIGHTEOUS." Romans 5:19

Watch this now...
The unbeliever has the opportunity to avoid God's hatred—because of God's love.
I say again—it seems that God has a love/hate relationship with sinners.

The Scripture is clear, look at these two verses:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that
loveth violence his soul hateth." Psa. 11:5

How can this God of the Hebrews both hate and love at the same time?
Well the verses are pretty clear—God is love (1 John 4:8), but He is also a man of war. (Exodus 15:3)

The same brilliant sunlight which nourishes one plant, can easily destroy another.
The soul that is not clothed in God's righteousness (Jesus)—will feel God's hatred.

When a believer sins, (as we all have done) they are CHASTISED as opposed to being hated. Why? Because of adoption. Despite the humanists claims—the inhabitants of earth are not all the children of God. The believer on the hand, has the spirit of adoption—he is a true child of God.

So in conclusion, I believe the Bible teaches that God both loves AND hates sinners.
God loved every sinner (the world) enough to pay for their sins, there is no greater love on earth. But until they repent, His hatred for those who defy Him and His hatred for their sin is not reduced. (Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:5 Lev. 20:23; Prov. 6:16-19; Hos. 9:15, Gal. 6:7, Rev. 20:15).

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

I posted this over on the other thread,
for others who may stumble on this in the future...

I have not commented on this thread until now, but I do feel it is important for the child of God to understand these difficult passages about hate, and I want to post something here that may help you understand. This is from my archives, I wrote it long ago. I don't care to argue about it, I taught this in adult Sunday School for many years and I came to this conclusion after study and prayer, and this is what God laid on my heart. If you don't agree with it, that's fine and I have no problem with you and I respect your views. I hope this helps anyone who may be struggling with this issue...

I believe it could be construed that God
has a love/hate relationship with sinners.

Yes, that's right---I think God both loves AND hates sinners.
Sometimes I feel that way about computers, LOL.
Why do I say this? Because that is exactly what I see in the Bible!

I guess the Fred Phelps family would have their own spin on this, but without taking it to those terrible extremes—it could be construed that God has a love/hate relationship with sinners.
The child of God does not have to agree or align himself with fanatics or offensive fringe groups to understand God's Bible. That said, It is important for us to understand this issue, so we can help others understand.

It is important to remember, that POSITIONALLY there is a different standing for the redeemed as opposed to unbelievers. Unbelievers are like a building destined for destruction—they are condemned already due to their unbelief (John 3:18). The unbeliever who is actively rejecting God's love is in a position of sin—he is the ENEMY OF GOD. "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Romans 5:10

It could probably be argued that the unbeliever is not only a sinner—but positionally
HE IS SIN.
We often hear "God hates the sin," well,—there you are.
Look carefully at the KJV text in this verse:
"For he hath MADE HIM TO BE SIN for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Corinthians 5:21

The unbeliever is not only is sinning, he is positionally titled "SINNER,"—he was made that way by Adam's sin.
"For as by one man's disobedience many were MADE SINNERS, so by the obedience of one shall many be MADE RIGHTEOUS." Romans 5:19

Watch this now...
The unbeliever has the opportunity to avoid God's hatred—because of God's love.
I say again—it seems that God has a love/hate relationship with sinners.

The Scripture is clear, look at these two verses:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that
loveth violence his soul hateth." Psa. 11:5

How can this God of the Hebrews both hate and love at the same time?
Well the verses are pretty clear—God is love (1 John 4:8), but He is also a man of war. (Exodus 15:3)

The same brilliant sunlight which nourishes one plant, can easily destroy another.
The soul that is not clothed in God's righteousness (Jesus)—will feel God's hatred.

When a believer sins, (as we all have done) they are CHASTISED as opposed to being hated. Why? Because of adoption. Despite the humanists claims—the inhabitants of earth are not all the children of God. The believer on the hand, has the spirit of adoption—he is a true child of God.

So in conclusion, I believe the Bible teaches that God both loves AND hates sinners.
God loved every sinner (the world) enough to pay for their sins, there is no greater love on earth. But until they repent, His hatred for those who defy Him and His hatred for their sin is not reduced. (Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:5 Lev. 20:23; Prov. 6:16-19; Hos. 9:15, Gal. 6:7, Rev. 20:15).

Brother Parrish. That sums it up for me. I agree.