Originally Posted by pbiwolski

I imagine ERIC's Bible reading may go something like this...

Rev. 20:1-8
1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (well, I don't believe this)
3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years (I don't believe this either) should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (whatever)
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years (can't be real) were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (I don't think so)
7. And when the thousand years (NOT) are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8. And shall go out to deceive the nations...

pbiwolski, thanks for joining the discussion...

Have you ever considered the literary genre of the various books of the Bible? Revelation is clearly apocalyptic and must be understood that way. One does not interpret prose the same they interpret a poem or even legal code. As such, to have a proper hermeneutic we must consider the qualities of apocalyptic literature. Have you ever done literary analysis in your Bible studies? A literal reading of apocalyptic literature is generally not the right way to go... Apocalyptic literature tends to have vivid imagery and great symbolism. It should be interpreted in light of the more clear passages from the Gospels and Paul's letters...

[atlas]

Eric,

Apostates of a feather flock together. As always the Laodiceans are left in the dark. IE: blind. Notice it did not say the world is blind, but the church is blind.

A literal reading of apocalyptic literature is generally not the right way to go

Now I fully understand the fullness of your apostasy. So you do not believe the Great White Throne Judgment, the 7 churches, ( church age ) are not to be literal.

that this position was held firmly by the earliest Church Fathers immediately following the apostles."

Wrong again, he holds that the Catholics hold to this view. He dose not even know who the real church was in the line of the apostles. The Novatians, Donatists, Bogomiles, Albigenses, Paulicians, etc. were all belived in the rapture.

"It is our conviction that the post-tribulational, pre-millennial return of Jesus Christ is clearly revealed in the inspired Word of God

When you use a Catholic translation of the Bible IE: Translation based on the corrupt text from Africa this is 100% understandable. Therein lies the whole of your problem. Samuel E. Waldron does not have the inspired Word of God, nor do you. You do not have " the inspired Word of God. " Only the originals were inspired. Isn't this 100% correct? All you have are translations of copies and no translation or copy is inspired or perfect. This is what you believe. So do not come on here and lie to us about " the inspired Word of God " that you do not have, have never seen or will never see. At least be a man about and say " the uninspired imperfect copies that have some of the words of God in them.

Rule 1: All apostates are liars, as proven over and over again. As you have proved here with your own post.

Apostate liars tell you they have something they do not believe they have, " the inspired Word of God. " You can call it what you may yet a lie is nothing more than faking reality. That is all a lie ever is. Believing reality is one thing while saying reality is something else. You need to repent and turn from the sin of telling lies.

Here is your lie one more time.

" It is our conviction that the post-tribulational, pre-millennial return of Jesus Christ is clearly revealed in the inspired Word of God "

By using the word " our " you are saying that you and Samuel E. Waldron must have read " the inspired Word of God " at some point in time. Not one of you have ever seen one original book Bible in your life, nor will you. Not one much less all of the original books of the Bible even exist today. Never forget there can only ever be one original of anything. Adam was the only original man, you and I are just copies of copies. Their was only one original Model T car, all others were just copies. The same hold true for all 66 books of the Bible. There was only original of the book of James, Gen., and so on and so fourth.

So after you go read this post go and repent for telling lies.

Now Bible believers do believe we can have a perfect copy, and even perfected copy of God's Word. We do have the inspired Word of God. We can hold it in our hand and read it. I do so every day of my life. This is something that you apostates say you do and preach from the churches, but all lie about all the time. You guys are so lukewarm, so sinful and so damaging to the work of the Lord. Apostates are the ones responsible for the shape the church is in today. I have more respect for a drunk or a whore than I do a Bible correcting apostate. The drunks and whores will at least admit what they really are, this is far more than I can say for the apostates. The drunks and whores do realize what kind of shape they are in. The apostates are blind just the Bible says they will be. The Bible predicted this about 2000 years ago, the church is full of them today. The Bible was right again, as always.


Atlas

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by ericwgreene

Apocalyptic literature tends to have vivid imagery and great symbolism.

Wow, I'm literally (not symbolically) intrigued by this means of interpretation. Please comment on these 8 verses of Rev. 20 and explain what it is really saying - without the imagery and symbolism.

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

Wow, I'm literally (not symbolically) intrigued by this means of interpretation. Please comment on these 8 verses of Rev. 20 and explain what it is really saying - without the imagery and symbolism.

I would literally also would like to hear the symbolical comments of
Revaltion 20 means.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by ericwgreene

pbiwolski, thanks for joining the discussion...

Have you ever considered the literary genre of the various books of the Bible? Revelation is clearly apocalyptic and must be understood that way. One does not interpret prose the same they interpret a poem or even legal code. As such, to have a proper hermeneutic we must consider the qualities of apocalyptic literature. Have you ever done literary analysis in your Bible studies? A literal reading of apocalyptic literature is generally not the right way to go... Apocalyptic literature tends to have vivid imagery and great symbolism. It should be interpreted in light of the more clear passages from the Gospels and Paul's letters...

This is the same garbage that was spewed from my old anglican ministers mouth before I switched Bibles and Churches.

It basically means "Revelation is a book we can never understand, so why bother"

The ambiguous prophecy that the amillennialist pictures the book of Revelation to be makes John the apostle no better a prophet than Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, or Madame Blavatsky.

Notice how David Pareus, a 17th century amillennial historicist, interprets Revelation:

“White Horse = early Church shining in pure doctrine and innocence.
Rider = Christ
Bow = Word of God
Red Horse = early Church made red by martyrdom.
Rider = Christ, who came not to send peace on the earth, but a sword and fire, is present with His Church even during their greatest trials.
Sword = the means by which Christ takes peace from the earth, for there is no peace for the wicked.
Black Horse = heresies which plague the Church, polluting its purity of doctrine.
Rider = Christ, whom the heretics claim for their own, perverting Scripture to prove their errors. Christ is with His Church even during the darkest heretical periods, for there must be heresies that they which be approved may be made manifest.
Balance = holy Scripture which determines the rule of doctrine, weighing it, whether true or false.
A measure of wheat for a penny, etc. = prophecy of a spiritual famine of the Word of God sent by God as a judgment upon the corrupters of the Church.
Wheat = Elect teachers, rare and precious, who preach sound and orthodox doctrine concerning God and Christ, of which there should be, as it were, a famine in the earth. Nevertheless, with this wheat God would feed His elect, no matter the difficulty of labor.
Wine and Oil = the orthodox, true faith. Ribera interprets this of their seven sacraments, and hence, promises the Pope a great victory against the Lutherans, vainly seeking a garland and comfort in the idle fictions of his own brain.
Pale Horse = the Church sick unto death through the rise of Antichrist by means of the hypocrisies of superstitious monks, with the pomp, luxury and avarice of ambitious prelates. Moreover, the loose living of the bishops and clergy mightily increased this pale disease. For now infinite ceremonies and human traditions are established, such as worshipping the dead, images, the observation of holy days, orders, rites and solemnities forged by the devil himself, (only the names were altered), were forced upon the Church to the utter abolishing of the doctrine of free grace, and the merits of Christ. This apostate pale horse began to go forth in A. D. 606 with the pontificate of Boniface III.
The souls under the altar = the martyrs of Christ who suffered under the Roman Caesar Nero until Pope Boniface III.
The altar = in Heaven before the throne of God, Rev. 8:3. Ribera here is to be hissed at. He affirms that in this speech John has respect to the ancient custom of Christians laying up the relics of saints under the altar. He says, ‘For when an altar is built, a sepulcher is made under it in which relics are kept, and the priest, dipping his finger in the Chrism, makes the sign of the cross upon the four corners of the sepulcher, saying, This sepulcher is consecrated and sanctified in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, peace be unto this house, etc.’
Altar = Christ, under whom the souls are safeguarded and protected. However tyrants may kill their bodies, the martyrs souls are immediately received by Christ, according to the prayer of Stephen, the first martyr, Lord Jesus receive my spirit, and as Christ promised the thief, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Moreover, here we are plainly taught that the souls of the martyrs and other departed saints are not in the pains of Purgatory, but enjoy the presence of Christ, their Saviour, in the heavens.
The sixth seal = the very last persecution under Antichrist, though those who hold the common opinion that it is tribulation under one single Antichrist in the last four years of the world do err. Ribera and others interpret it properly of the signs going before Christ’s last coming, spoken of in Mat. 24 and Luke 21. But most apply it to the horrible confusions and calamities which by Antichrist shall be brought upon the whole earth. But for my own part, I understand this vision to foreshadow the many and sore trials wherewith for a thousand years or more the Church of Christ has been exercised under Antichrist, as Church histories testify.
Great earthquake = Antichrist overthrowing the biblical order and discipline of Christ for an ecclesiastical monarchy.
The sun became black as sackcloth = Christ, the Sun of righteousness shall be horribly eclipsed, that is, the doctrine touching His offices and benefits darkened and utterly defaced.
Sackcloth = the hair of sackcloth is made of the black hair of goats or horses, whereof in former times they made mourning garments. These garments did prick the flesh, causing much pain to those who wore them. Hence, the hypocritical monks, as the Carthusians and Capuchins, and other Antichristian frogs (who glory of perfection) wear such garments for the beating down of their flesh.”

Using the same method of interpretation as Mr. Pareus, I can find some intriguing prophecies in my TV set operation manual, written by one mysteriously referred to as “The Company:”

"This TV was made in Austria and shipped to the U.S. for entertainment purposes. U.S. taxes apply" = Arnold Schwarzeneggar coming to America, joining the entertainment industry, and then winning as governor of California and raising their taxes.

"The screen turns black when the power is turned off." = The complete spiritual blackout of the masses to the word of God.

“The remote control can change the channels on your television set from long distances.” = The US trying to control the Middle East and occupying Iraq.

“You can preprogram the built-in VCR to record any shows you wish to view later by using the menu button.” = The preprogramming and invasive recording methods of the government.

When I am never able to get a clear picture on channel seven no matter how much I turn and twist and move the antenna, I understand this as a plain analogy of the United States not being able to capture Osama Bin Ladin no matter how much they try.



Obviously, anybody can interpret just about anything anyway they want. Is Scriptural prophecy really as obscure an ambiguous as the amillennialist makes it to be?
Let’s take a look at some Bible prophecies of the first coming of Jesus Christ:

Prophecy: Isa 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Fulfillment: Mat 1:18 - Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:24 - Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 - And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Prophecy: Micah 5:2 - But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Fulfillment: Mat 2:1 - Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

Prophecy: Jer 31:15 - Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Fulfillment: Mat 2:16 - Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

Prophecy: Isa 40:3 - The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Fulfillment: Mat 3:1,2 - In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Prophecy: Zec 9:9 - Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Fulfillment: Luke 19:35-37 - And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon. And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way. And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;

Prophecy: Psa 41:9 - Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
Psa 55:12-14 - For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance. We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.
Fulfillment: Mat 10:4 - Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
John 13:18 - I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Prophecy: Zec 11:12 - And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
Fulfillment: Mat 26:15 - And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.

Prophecy: Zec 11:13 - And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
Fulfillment: Mat 27:5 - And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Mat 27:7 - And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.

Prophecy: Isa 53:7 - He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Fulfillment: Mat 27:12 - And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.

Prophecy: Isa 53:5 - But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Fulfillment: Mat 27:26 - Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

Prophecy: Isa 50:6 - I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.
Fulfillment: Mat 26:67 - Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,

Prophecy: Isa 53:12 - Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Fulfillment: Mat 27:38 - Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
Mark 15:28 - And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
Luke 23:32 - And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.

Prophecy: Psa 22:18 - They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Fulfillment: John 19:23-24 - Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

Prophecy: Psa 22:15 -My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Psa 69:21 - They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
Fulfillment: John 19:28 - After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Mat 27:34 - They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

Prophecy: Psa 22:1 - To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Fulfillment: Mat 27:46 - And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Prophecy: Psa 34:20 - He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.
Fulfillment: John 19:33 - But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

Prophecy: Psa 22:16 - For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Fulfillment: Luke 23:33 - And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

Prophecy: Psa 16:10 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Fulfillment: Mat 28:6 - He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
Acts 2:31 - He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.



Notice that the prophecies of Jesus’ first coming were so plainly and literally fulfilled that I don’t even need to comment on them or “interpret” them for you. They are self interpreting. Why would prophecies of His second coming be any different? Scriptural prophecy is exact, detailed, and self-evident.
Although there is symbolism present in prophecy, it is usually very easily seen as symbolism. God’s future statements are as plain as His past statements, for He is the I Am. The prophecies in the Bible are TRUE prophecies, they are not some ethereal statements that can be interpreted 800 different ways AFTER they have been fulfilled (As can be see by looking at different views of Revelation by different Amillennialists.) When Bible prophecy is fulfilled, it is fulfilled EXACTLY.

[Jeremy]

Originally Posted by ericwgreene

By the way, I used to hold to what you listed above and my whole church holds to it now. What intially lead me astray was the fruit that I saw produced from it. So called prophecy people use the "end times" to improperly espouse conspiracy theories and cause fear mongering among the believers. I do not find this to be edifying for the body of Christ. Rather, Christians should be told that regardless of what happens they will need to hold fast and strong to faith and prepare for the persecution that is to come...

I agree with the list,in an age where God has not changed and the churches are ,in order to appease the people. The cornerstone of our beliefs are being watered down and dispelled like yesterdays newspaper. I happen to be a Prophecy person and believe that it is a Huge disservice to christians when the pastor decides to exclude what God had included in his word. Its know wonder that christians cannot make a connection to current events when it is not teached,you sound just like my Baptist brother in law and other preachers who refuse to teach this. Why did God put it in his word if we are not to know it. Revelation,if you read it, is positive and not negative, like some would have you to believe, the blessed hope,for those who are looking at todays signs that are pointing to the second coming,knowing how near we are to the Rapture.
I have a feeling you are refering to christians (Believers)going through the tribulation,by your statement..persecution to come. If Prophecy was taught,christians would know that we will be Raptured and not go through Tribulation.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

I imagine ERIC's Bible reading may go something like this...

Rev. 20:1-8
1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (well, I don't believe this)
3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years (I don't believe this either) should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (whatever)
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years (can't be real) were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (I don't think so)
7. And when the thousand years (NOT) are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8. And shall go out to deceive the nations...

YES! Now that's how it's done, brother! Good stuff!

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[Luke]

That is hilarious