Originally Posted by Luke

Is this really what one needs to do to be saved? Do they need to actually be a disciple of Christ, by forsaking and following?

It's not always easy to put my thoughts down in a clear and concise way, so I thought I may have to do some fine tuning.

I believe Bible repentance means a turning to God and a change of mind toward God that results in a change of life. We are also told we must be born again of God, this will also result in a changed life. This changed life is evidence of a born again Christian. I'm not saying that you must first be a disciple of Christ before you can be saved. Once Christ justifies a sinner and they are saved, He will also sanctify the person and this will be a process.

Originally Posted by Luke

Does a sinner really need to FORSAKE SIN first, then TURN?

Doesn't that wording eliminate the process of sanctification, and turn justification into works?

fine tuning my words. What I meant by forsake, (any maybe I used the wrong word??) is hate the old man, (the old sinful flesh). You have a change of mind re: your old way of sin and turn instead to follow the way of Jesus. and of course this is a process of sanctification. You are justified when you have the change of mind, (which leads to a change of life). Repentance and faith unto salvation is not works!!!!! It is the type of faith that saves! Remember the demons believe, yet perish.

Originally Posted by Luke

I am not having a go at you, because I am sure you would deny that a sinner must forsake their sins to be saved, because that is a works gospel. But the wording there is quite confusing, and also not right.

Salvation is

TURN from unbelief to God in believing the Gospel. That's it.

Sanctification SHOULD follow salvation, whereby we repent of our sins as a continual process and become holier, and while this does prove our salvation in some sense (to the world), it does not save us.

God bless

No one is having a go at anyone. We are having a discussion. Hopefully it can remain that way???

I think you are missing something in regards to the Gospel. Man is a sinner. The man must acknowledge that he is a sinner otherwise why would he need a Saviour? So a person believes that Jesus died on the cross for sins, is that person saved?

In my experience in witnessing and sharing the Gospel, the lost do not acknowledge they are sinners, although they believe they are fine because Jesus died for the sins of the world. What's missing here? and please tell me the meaning of Luke 13:3

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

In looking at the context of Luke ch 13, it is repentance of sin and particularly of the disbelief of the Messiah.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Beth

I think you are missing something in regards to the Gospel. Man is a sinner. The man must acknowledge that he is a sinner otherwise why would he need a Saviour? So a person believes that Jesus died on the cross for sins, is that person saved?

Nope, I just wasn't talking about the Gospel.

The Gospel is 1 Cor 15:1-4 and all that it implies

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures (therefore, if he died for our sins, we must be sinners). He was buried (therefore, our sins were buried with him in death), he rose again according to the scriptures (therefore, we have hope of life, and sin is dead to us, yet we live in Christ). We must believe, and this passage implies we must believe according to what the scriptures say in regards to his death, burial and ressurection.

To answer your question though (honestly, I just wanted a little clarification on what you meant), it depends.

Jesus said there are two types of people who will believe He died for sinners. (The self-righteous, and the sinners). The self righteous believe Jesus Christ died for sinners, but since they think they aren't sinners, they think they don't need him. The sinners believe Jesus Christ died for sinners, and since they are one, they believe Jesus Christ died for them. The self righteous are not saved, the sinners that believe are.

Originally Posted by Luke

The self righteous believe Jesus Christ died for sinners, but since they think they aren't sinners, they think they don't need him. The sinners believe Jesus Christ died for sinners, and since they are one, they believe Jesus Christ died for them. The self righteous are not saved, the sinners that believe are.

Of course, this is where repentance comes in. In repenting we acknowledge our sinful life and turn from this way of life, a change of mind and turn instead to Jesus. We are no longer depending on ourselves, but now depend on Jesus. Again, I will say this doesn't mean that we no longer sin, although we now have a change of mind re: our sin. We still have flesh and the flesh struggles against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.

Now how about Luke 13:5. Here is Luke 13:1-5

Luke 13:1-5 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by Beth

and please tell me the meaning of Luke 13:3

In looking at the context of Luke ch 13, it is repentance of sin and particularly of the disbelief of the Messiah.

Alright Beth, you continue to bring up this passage as it is the premier passage used to preach "repent of your sins or perish in hell."

Allow me to remind you of my statement in the start of this thread:

"I have also found that the "proof texts" for the position held by so many are easily refuted by careful reading of the actual text."

Read carefully the first five verses of the chapter and notice that the "change of mind" Christ is calling for is not turning from their sins to be saved, but rather turn from supposing (v.2) and thinking (v.4) that it's only the bad sinners (the ones that received judgment) that are guilty. Christ's remarks are saying, "You're not ok either, we're all 'bad sinners' in God's eyes." Christ was transitioning them from the OT works salvation (bad perish, good live; see Ezek.18,33) to believing on Him, the only One without sin. The repentance is from their viewpoint (a change of mind) rather than their individual sins.

Rather than reading the passage as "Except ye repent (of YOUR sins), ye shall all likewise perish," try seeing that the Lord was teaching them that God's judgment is not just for the "sinners above all men," and that that way of thinking must be repented of.

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

Alright Beth, you continue to bring up this passage as it is the premier passage used to preach "repent of your sins or perish in hell."

The only reason I continued to bring it up is because there was no answer.

Thanks for answering the question though.

I agree it's a change of mind re: your sins. This is repentance unto salvation. I certainly understand that a Christian does not have to stop all sin in order to be saved.

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

Or perhaps, the truth is that repentance for a lost man (today) is turning from his unbelief, not his individual sins that he is bound by.

I can't find this in the Bible anywhere - which one are you reading? The Bible teaches to repent of our wickedness, our idolatry, etc. There are many clear passages that teach or show by example the lost turning from their sin (which is what repentance is).

Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

It doesn't say, "Let the wicked forsake his unbelief."

The sin that brings a man condemnation is the sin of unbelief...

No, the Bible is pretty clear - all our sin brings condemnation - our unbelief is the deciding factor.

Repentance is not a work - it is not an action. It is a change of mind RESULTING IN a change of life. It is the change in the heart - that WILL change the life if it is genuine. There is no such thing as salvation that does not change a person eternally, and in their daily life.

If someone was presented with how they have broken the 10 Commandments: for example, they are guilty of adultery, lying, and stealing. And then they are shown how their sin makes them guilty of Hell - but that Jesus paid that penalty for sin. YET if there was no repentance in their heart - no desire to turn from those sins they already know they are guilty of - then they are not turning to Jesus to save them, they are going through the motions. There is no salvation in such a case. The lost person who sees his sin in the light of God's Word, sees how Jesus is the only Saviour who can forgive him and save him from those sins, turns from those sins in his heart (which is what repentance is - the life will follow afterwards) and turns to the Lord Jesus Christ to save him (now detesting those sins that he once loved) - that is the person who will be saved. The adulterer who is still determined to cling to his adultery while he is supposedly asking Jesus to saved him, is not saved. The thief who is planning his next robbery while "calling on Jesus" for salvation is just going through the motions.

[pbiwolski]

That sounds good in your head, Jerry, but it's not going to come clean with Scripture.

And using Isaiah's preaching to the OT Jews as your proof text to turn from one's sins before salvation today is what I am coming to expect from you.

I noticed that you missed my comment on John 16 (from pg.1). Oh, and why is he that believeth not condemned already? You can finish the verse can't you?

There is only one Saviour and only one plan of salvation - it could be preached from the OT or the NT, from Genesis, Leviticus, Psalms or Isaiah, John or Romans, Hebrews or Galatians - through types or direct statements.

That sounds good in your head, Jerry, but it's not going to come clean with Scripture.

Saying it doesn't line up isn't the same thing as proving what I said wrong. No wonder too many people think they can lose their salvation when they don't require repentance for it in the first place. No repentance, no changed life, no change or heart or of nature (no being born again) - no wonder those people seem to lose what they never had in the first place!

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by jerry

There is only one Saviour and only one plan of salvation - it could be preached from the OT or the NT, from Genesis, Leviticus, Psalms or Isaiah, John or Romans, Hebrews or Galatians - through types or direct statements

You've been here before on other threads, and as long as your stuck with your missunderstanding of God's dealing with man over the ages then I suppose there's no point in proving anything to you.