Originally Posted by evstevemd

I have dominion over sin by the power that resurrected Jesus(Holy Ghost)!

You are not sinless by any stretch of the imagination - you sin everyday.

If I sin and repent not I loose salvation and count blood of Jesus unholy thing.

1) How fast do you need to repent before you lose your salvation? How much sin is acceptable to God before you are lost again? Even pride is a sin, lustful or foolish thoughts, doubt, worrying - like everyone else, you have sinned in these areas - are these any more acceptable to God than outward sins? No, in fact He seems to be more against spiritual sins, sins of the heart (as they will eventually affect the life). How about your words? Have you always spoke edifying words to the brethren, ever lost your temper, ever judged someone's motives?

So no eternal security unless you do the will of God.

Well, this passage states you cannot ALWAYS do the will of God - you are still a sinner, with a sin nature in you - if you deny that you are calling God a liar and deceiving yourself.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

If even a just (saved) man can sin, then every single saint should have lost their salvation somewhere along the way because they have all sinned after they got saved. How much sin will God tolerate before He casts you aside? He states He chastises EVERY child of His. He speaks, spanks, scourges, and then separates by death (which is His last step - taking them home to Heaven).

[atlas]

Jerry,

I think you fixed that point.





Atlas

Originally Posted by atlas

Guys,

We are talking about this issue on a few other topics. I think we need to start our on topic on the subject of eternal security.

Here is the question.

How do you stay saved?

Do you keep yourself saved by your works or by the works of God?

Let me be the 1st to say I was saved by works. I will also say I am kept saved by works.


HIS WORKS.

My works are a filthy rags and my works could never save me or keep me saved. I believe in eternal security. I was saved by the works that Jesus Christ did for my salvation. I am also kept by saved by His works. God has done the works that I could never do. I accepted his works by faith. That is how I was saved. That is how I will stay saved.

I HAD NOTHING TOL DO WITH MY SALVATION OTHER THAN ACCEPTING IT!

Now there are only two things that can keep you saved. No matter what you believe, it must be one of the two.

1. The works of God.

2. The works of man.

Who's works are keeping you saved?


Atlas

Refer the red lettered above
I don't agree with your principle of salvation!
Look this and will help

Originally Posted by evstevemd

Refer the red lettered above
I don't agree with your principle of salvation!
Look this and will help

Be careful, the link you gave preaches a doctrine that uses a similar approach to scripture as the JW's. It has a ring of truth about it, but upon closer examination, its conclusions depend on ignoring vast amounts of scripture along with the twisting of selected verses in an effort to validate their position.
Many times the literal and most obvious meaning of a selected verse is ignored and an illogical cross reference is used to create another meaning.

You ignored a question that I put to you earlier...cant you answer it?

I will ask it again...How many ours a day do you carry out the will of God? Going by what you say, slip up in this area for even 1 second in the day and you lose your salvation and have to be saved all over again. What if you die in that 1 second during the day that you have lost your salvation?

By having to submit yourself to a 24/7 effort to carry out the will of God, you are very simply creating a works based gospel.

Fundy

A good example of this is this quote from the editor of the web site that you recommend:

QUOTE "Doesn't the Scripture say that if we keep on confessing Christ as Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved?"

No, it does not say that!! the language of the Bible clearly indicates that this is a one off event...nowhere are we told to "keep on confessing" in order to be saved.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

You view of salvation is tainted by a false gospel



Fundy

[Jeff]

Look this and will help

I've only made it through the opening paragraphs so far (I'm not sure if I'm going to persevere through the rest ).

There are huge numbers of people who say with confidence that they are born again Christians, and yet demonstrate by the way they live that they do not believe their eternal salvation depends in any way on their willingness to turn from sin and live for God.

What are the denominations that believe in insecure salvation? I'd like to see how much more godly their lives are. I believe Methodists are one, are they the model of what a church and Christians should be?

We don't have to be perfect to be right with God. Its just that a true born again Christian really wants to please God.

Wait a second, doesn't that contradict the above argument, and this argument (describing the doctrine of eternal security)?

In other words, if a person was truly born again of the Spirit of God, even if he or she backslides and gets into open wilful sin of any kind - even to the point of becoming an atheist, a witch, a Christ-hater, and a bitter opponent of the gospel - that person will go to heaven when they die, even if they never repent in this life and come back to Christ.

In fact the idea that a true born again Christian would want to please God and not backslide to the extent of denying Him was an argument I was using to defend the doctrine of eternal security. I reckon I must be confused.

The truth or otherwise of the doctrine of eternal security has real consequences in the way we preach the gospel, the way we instruct new converts, and our attitude towards temptation and compromise in our own lives.

I remember someone else addressing a Pentacostal preacher who thought he needed to preach insecurity even though he no longer believed in it (sorry, I can find the post off-hand). Sometimes it seems it's just not expedient to teach the Bible.

I've had to deal with habitual sin in my life. I don't think I'm the only one, and it's not an easy thing. I actually think it would have been a lot harder if I had thought God was continually unsaving me the whole time. Even if I did immediately master all habitual sins, what about Fundy's question? What's the longest you've ever gone without sin?

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Jeff

I remember someone else addressing a Pentacostal preacher who thought he needed to preach insecurity even though he no longer believed in it (sorry, I can find the post off-hand). Sometimes it seems it's just not expedient to teach the Bible.

The quote I was referring to was by Brother Tim. I'm not sure how to link to it in the original thread but I'll try this http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...86&postcount=3

I once had a Pentecostal brother pastor who traveled to seminary with several of us Baptists. The trip was 2 or 3 days a week, 90 minutes each way. Many times the conversation was centered around eternal security, because that was the most important issue. The gifts of the Spirit were rarely discussed because that issue paled in comparison.

One day, this brother made a revealing statement. It went something like this, "Personally I believe that a Christian cannot lose his salvation, but I can't preach that from my pulpit or I would lose control of my people's behavior." We did not discuss the issue much after that.

[atlas]

evstevemd,

Refer the red lettered above
I don't agree with your principle of salvation!

You know what I mean by works. The works Jesus did on the cross. The finished work of Christ, IE: Death, Blood and Resurrection from the dead. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. He bleed for me and died for me. His blood covered my sin. he died so I would not have to take part of the 2nd death. He got out of that tomb on the 3rd day and lived again. That is what made salvation possible all salvation possible. That is what paid my sin debt. It was a bill that I could not pay. HIS WORKS saved me. I am saved by what HE did for me. If you are saved. You as saved by what he did on the cross, if not you are not saved.

After seeing your link, it does look very close to the JW's and their twisted view of salvation.


Atlas

Saved by works is only correct if we mean Christ's works. Maintaining salvation isn't by works, either. For example:

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Contrasted with:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We maintain salvation the same way we got it. Our "works" were in excepting. And, our works prove our salvation, not bring it about.

When a person "departs from the faith" as in 1st Timothy 4:1, they have walked away from the gift of God. They can't walk away from a place they never were. It isn't talking about refusing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it's departing from it. A person can't depart from a place they are not at.

The phrase, "they were never saved in the first place" isn't accurate to say. If that were true, how could anyone every really know they are saved? God gives us the free gift of salvation with assurance:

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

And, we know we have faith by the works we do:

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption and that is God's plan.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

On our part, we abide in Him to maintain our salvation. So as not to slip away, or lose faith.

1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

We work with God, and He works with us.

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

So, we aren't saved or maintained by our works.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

But, it is by faith:

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Wow, I miss your point here, it seems you are meshing a lot of scripture together, kinda confusing..

Let me ask you this, do you believe a true believer can loose their salvation ?