[Brother Tim]

Tony, I was involved in a lengthy debate with Barry (FSSL) on FFF regarding Origen. I had believed some erroneous information at the beginning. Through a fair amount of research I was able to get a better picture of Origen's involvement with the texts. I am not an expert by any means, but I would suggest that you do some independent research before responding to others about Origen. A lot of what you have attached to Origen is actually about Eusebius, and much of what is known about Origen is based on Eusebius' writings, himself not being a model of true Biblical doctrine by any stretch.

One reference that I am currently reading is a very lengthy historical paper by Dr. Fredrick Nolan, from the mid-nineteenth century. I would let you know ahead of time that Dr. Nolan writes on a very sophisticated level. Barry threw in the towel without making it very far, because of Dr. Nolan's "convoluted" and "confusing" writing, in Barry's opinion, of course. Dr. Nolan's writings are difficult to say the least, but it is possible to follow his line of argument. The greatest flaw that I find with the essay is that there are no references given by him for follow-up examination.

[Samuel]

The two mainstays of the Alexanderian text the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, do not even agree with each other. The Sinaiticus was found in a trash dump, at a catholic monastery at the foot of Mt. Sinai in 1844. The other in the Vatican vaults at the time of Erasmus, he was offered them but refused. Due to the apparent corruption.

There are hundreds of strike outs, eliminations of whole verses, and rewrites. Neither copy has the whole Bible.

Wescott and Hort used these two codex to make their Greek New Testament, which is even more corrupt than the original text. Which is the backbone of all the Modern Versions of the Bible. Even the NKJV, which does not follow the TR faithfully, regardless of advertisement that it does.

Originally Posted by Jordan

Can someone show/tell me why these manuscripts are wrong? I know they remove verses and stuff, but I'm just searching for some info here.

Jordan,
Greetings, I see from your website you are 19 years old.
I see you already have some answers there, now I want to ask you a question... a little over a year ago, you made the following post and later implied on that thread the KJV was full of errors:

Originally Posted by Jordan

Some People Should Realize...
That the KJV isn't the only "true" translation. Words have changed in meaning since it was published (1600's) and the word's have been replaced with something that is an alternative that means THE SAME THING. I think it's good that we have different versions of the Bible, like the NASB, NKJV, AMP, etc.

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4250#post4250

Now young Jordan let me ask you---in the past year, have you learned anything here that would change your mind or do you still feel the same way?

[George]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Jordan,
Greetings, I see from your website you are 19 years old.
I see you already have some answers there, now I want to ask you a question... a little over a year ago, you made the following post and later implied on that thread the KJV was full of errors:


http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4250#post4250

Now young Jordan let me ask you---in the past year, have you learned anything here that would change your mind or do you still feel the same way?

Aloha brother Parrish,

Great "detective work"! And a very "appropriate" QUESTION! Have you noticed HOW the anti-King James Bible trolls have come out of the "woodwork" {and if "the shoe fits" they should wear it - no need to name, names}?

These people cannot wait for the opportunity to slander God's word or at the very least cast doubts about its veracity.

Glad to have you on board - I have a few questions about "Jordan" myself. And I will address them in my next Post (that follows).

[George]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Origen was essentially nothing more than a scribe assigned by the Emperor Constantine to produce a number of Bibles for the different churches after Constantine allegedly converted to "Christianity". Origen was more of a philosopher than theologian, and in the Scriptural realm codified Roman Catholicism as a systematized belief. That particular belief can be found in the manuscripts he edited, although as I said, Vaticanus was itself edited so many times as to be almost unreadable over the centuries.

Origen was an extreme ascetic(separatist) who had himself castrated after reading what Christ said about if your eye offends thee, pluck it out.

One thing you find evident in the Alexandrian manuscripts that survive today: They are written on very expensively tanned animal hides(vellum). It's apparent then that these manuscripts were abandoned very early as a textual foundation, which is why there are only 45 manuscripts in existence while the Majority text was copied onto papyrus, very cheap and widely used but not so durable. Though alleged to be "late" the Majority text is just that, the majority with over 5000 manuscripts extant. My question for the Alexandrian proponents is why would there not be over 5000 "late" copies of the Alexandrian text in evidence, if it were the "correct" text, in competition to the "incorrect" Majority text and also copied on cheap but not-so-durable papyrus?

To anyone with any logic running their thought processes, this is clear evidence the Alexandrian text was a REJECTED text, while the corrupted Catholic Vulgate, copied from the corrupted Alexandrian manuscripts, was hidden away in Catholic Churches, available only in Latin to people who did not speak Latin.

It's also my firm belief that anyone who accepts any "Bible" today translated from this corrupt text or defends it is saying, simply, that the Catholic Church and it's corrupted doctrines is the only correct and true church.

Grace and peace

Tony

Aloha brother Tony,

Before you waste very much time with "Jordan", you should review his previous "Threads: & "Posts" to see "WHERE he is coming from" and to get "a handle" on WHAT kind of person he is. WATCH OUT for the "GOTCHA" - this young man doesn't have an honest or sincere BONE in his entire body! {Check out his website - It's all about JORDAN!}

Brother, you "can bet your bottom dollar" that Jordan already knows about Origen, and is just going to "play along" or "string you along" (and others) until he sees the right moment to "pounce" and display his cunning craftiness for all to see (once again).

The following are "Jordan's" two previous Threads. {Please Consider: "THIS" from an 18 year old BOY! (at the time)}:

Jordan's Thread #1. <> 05-07-2008 09:52 PM <> Help Me <> http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...91&postcount=1

"I am looking to order a KJV Bible but am having trouble finding one for a reasonable price on the internet. I came across a couple that I will link you too.

There's this one: http://www.christianbook.com/Christi...1&item_code=WW
This one: https://shop.avpublications.com/prod...271eb08fc34082

I'm just not sure which one is going to be the best value for me, please give me some insight if you can."

In Christ,

Jordan

Please read through the Thread carefully (Too long to reproduce here) and see how this young man craftily asks "QUESTIONS" - to which he ALREADY KNOWS THE ANSWERS TO!


One day AFTER what "appears" to be a "SINCERE" plea for "HELP" (Jordan's Thread #1. <> "Help Me" ) - "Jordan" Posted the following Thread:

Jordan's Thread #2<> 05-08-2008 10:34 PM <> Some People Should Realize... <> http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...50&postcount=1

"That the KJV isn't the only "true" translation. Words have changed in meaning since it was published (1600's) and the word's have been replaced with something that is an alternative that means THE SAME THING. I think it's good that we have different versions of the Bible, like the NASB, NKJV, AMP, etc."

Jordan's Post #4 <> 05-09-2008 01:46 AM <> Some People Should Realize...

"How do you know the original translators didn't make mistakes? You don't do you?"

Jordan's Post #6 <> 05-09-2008 03:31 AM <> Some People Should Realize...

"No I'm not saying that but I'm saying that they weren't the smartest people ever in the universe or anything. I'm just saying it's all God's inspired Word, why can't we all be nice?"

Jordan's Post #11 <> 05-09-2008 12:15 PM <> Some People Should Realize...

"You guys are just too closed minded..."

Jordan's Post #12 <> 05-09-2008 01:07 PM <> Some People Should Realize...

"What about what S. Augustine says in the preface of the 1611 edition of the Bible?"

Jordan's Post #14 <> 05-09-2008 04:42 PM <> Some People Should Realize...

"So then we shouldn't read it. Jesus didn't speak English so we should read it in the original Hebrew and Greek texts."

AFTER several people made various comments, Jordan posted Posts #21, #24, #26, #28, and #29 - (all very short and of no consequence). He then came out and revealed his "true colors" with his Post #31 (Notice the time lapse between his Post #29 and His Post #31. What do you suppose that our "young lad" was doing for that month? Hmmm?):

Jordan's Post #31 <> 06-08-2008, 06:33 PM <> Some People Should Realize...

"Can someone explain these errors in the KJV translation?"

"Then how do they explain all these errors in the KJV?"

Genesis 1:2 should read "And the earth became without form . . . ." The word translated "was" is hayah, and denotes a condition different than a former condition, as in Genesis 19:26.

Genesis 10:9 should read " . . . Nimrod the mighty hunter in place of [in opposition to] the LORD." The word "before" is incorrect and gives the connotation that Nimrod was a good guy, which is false.

Leviticus 16:8, 10, 26 in the KJV is "scapegoat" which today has the connotation of someone who is unjustly blamed for other's sins. The Hebrew is Azazel, which means "one removed or separated." The Azazel goal represents Satan, who is no scapegoat. He is guilty of his part in our sins.

Deuteronomy 24:1, "then let him" should be "and he." As the Savior explained in Matthew 19, Moses did not command divorcement. This statute is regulating the permission of divorce because of the hardness of their hearts.

2 Kings 2:23, should be "young men", not "little children."

Isaiah 65:17 should be "I am creating [am about to create] new heavens and new earth . . . ."

Ezekiel 20:25 should read "Wherefore I permitted them, or gave them over to, [false] statutes that are not good, and judgments whereby they should not live." God's laws are good, perfect and right. This verse shows that since Israel rejected God's laws, He allowed them to hurt themselves by following false man made customs and laws.

Ezekiel 39:2 in the KJV indicates that one sixth of the invaders will be allowed to survive, but in the original Hebrew there is no mention of anybody whatsoever surviving. I have no idea how the KJV translators came up with one sixth surviving.

Daniel 8:14 is correct in the margin, which substitutes "evening morning" for "days." Too bad William Miller didn't realize this.

Malachi 4:6 should read " . . . lest I come and smite the earth with utter destruction." "Curse" doesn't give the proper sense here. Same word used in Zechariah 14:11.

Matthew 5:48 should be "Become ye therefore perfect" rather than "be ye therefore perfect." "Perfect" here means "spiritually mature." Sanctification is a process of overcoming with the aid of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 24:22 needs an additional word to clarify the meaning. It should say "there should no flesh be saved alive."

Matthew 27:49 omits text which was in the original. Moffatt correctly adds it, while the RSV puts it in a footnote: "And another took a spear and pierced His side, and out came water and blood." The Savior's death came when a soldier pierced His side, Revelation 1:7.

Matthew 28:1, "In the end of the sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week . . ." should be translated literally, "Now late on Sabbath, as it was getting dusk toward the first day of the week . . . ." The Sabbath does not end at dawn but at dusk.

Luke 2:14 should say, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men of God's good pleasure or choosing." That is, there will be peace on earth among men who have God's good will in their hearts.

Luke 14:26 has the unfortunate translation of the Greek word miseo, Strong's #3404, as "hate", when it should be rendered "love less by comparison." We are not to hate our parents and family!

John 1:31, 33 should say "baptize" or "baptizing IN water" not with water. Pouring or sprinkling with water is not the scriptural method of baptism, but only thorough immersion in water.

John 1:17 is another instance of a poor preposition. "By" should be "through": "For the law was given by [through] Moses . . . ." Moses did not proclaim his law, but God's Law.

John 13:2 should be "And during supper" (RSV) rather than "And supper being ended" (KJV).

Acts 12:4 has the inaccurate word "Easter" which should be rendered "Passover." The Greek word is pascha which is translated correctly as Passover in Matthew 26:2, etc.

1 Corinthians 1:18 should be: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that are perishing foolishness; but unto us which are being saved it is the power of God", rather than "perish" and "are saved." Likewise, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 should be "are perishing" rather than "perish."

1 Corinthians 15:29 should be: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the hope of the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the hope of the dead?"

2 Corinthians 6:2 should be "a day of salvation", instead of "the day of salvation." This is a quote from Isaiah 49:8, which is correct. The day of salvation is not the same for each individual. The firstfruits have their day of salvation during this life. The rest in the second resurrection.

1 Timothy 4:8 should say, "For bodily exercise profiteth for a little time: but godliness in profitable unto all things . . . ."

1 Timothy 6:10 should be, "For the love of money is a [not the] root of all evil . . . ."

Hebrews 4:8 should be "Joshua" rather than "Jesus", although these two words are Hebrew and Greek equivalents.

Hebrews 4:9 should read, "There remaineth therefore a keeping of a sabbath to the people of God."

Hebrews 9:28 is out of proper order in the King James. It should be: "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them without sin that look for him shall he appear the second time unto salvation."

1 John 5:7-8 contains additional text which was added to the original. "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." The italicized text was added to the original manuscripts. Most modern translations agree that this was an uninspired addition to the Latin Vulgate to support the unscriptural trinity doctrine.

Revelation 14:4 should be "a firstfruits", because the 144,000 are not all the firstfruits.

Revelation 20:4-5 in the KJV is a little confusing until you realize that the sentence "This is the first resurrection." in verse five refers back to "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" in verse four.

Revelation 20:10, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are [correction: should be 'were cast' because the beast and false prophet were mortal human beings who were burned up in the lake of fire 1,000 years previous to this time, Revelation 19:20], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." The point is that Satan will be cast into the same lake of fire into which the beast and false prophet were cast a thousand years previously.

Revelation 22:2 should be "health" rather than "healing."

This young man is one of the most deceptive young persons I have ever dealt with. I have met very few people of his age with so much "guile". If you read through his two previous Threads you can see how he "played" many of us, who at the beginning tried to truly "help" him. (However it didn't take some of us very long before we discovered "WHERE he was coming from")

Jordan's last Post was on 06-08-2008. After being thoroughly repudiated and rebuked (see Posts), he hadn't posted anything for approximately 10 months, until his newest "foray" (QUESTIONS - ALWAYS LOADED QUESTIONS! Read his clever "questions" carefully!) onto the Forum {Jordan's Thread: "Alexandrian Texts"}.

Unless this young man has repented and turned from his deceitful ways (which he hasn't publicly made known here), then he is just "baiting" whoever he can into another fruitless and unproductive debate.

Look at his "QUESTION":

"Can someone show/tell me why these manuscripts are wrong? I know they remove verses and stuff, but I'm just searching for some info here."

IF on the face of his "question" - "Jordan" CANNOT SEE that REMOVING God's WORDS from the Scriptures is WRONG, who amongst us here on the Forum are going to convince him otherwise? Hmmm? This kind of "discernment" is taught by the Holy Spirit - NOT men; and as long as this young man is determined to "find errors" in the Holy Bible, he will never understand WHY REMOVING God's WORDS from the HOLY Scriptures is not only "WRONG", but it is EVIL!

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him. {This applies to BOYS & YOUNG MEN ALSO!}

[peopleoftheway]

After visiting Jordans website I can confirm his insincerity in his posts, particularly when he asked about what group of KJV only he would fit into himself, which is a deceitful statement in its own right because this exert of his OWN website clearly marks his own beliefs as ANTI KJB

In this video I discuss what KJV-Onlyism is and why I do not think it is right, and why I do not believe that the KJV of the Bible is the only correct translation. There are many translations out there...use whatever one God speaks to you through!

Your Video by the way contains the same old tired arguments apostate Bible correctors have been using against the Bible, and EVERY one is easily answered and refuted.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Try at least to be honest and open if you are to call yourself a Born again Child of God, not underhand and deceitful.

[Jordan]

So because of me not being KJV only, that makes me Anti-KJV? I don't understand that, because I actually read from the KJV mostly.

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha brother Tony,

Before you waste very much time with "Jordan", you should review his previous "Threads: & "Posts" to see "WHERE he is coming from" and to get "a handle" on WHAT kind of person he is. WATCH OUT for the "GOTCHA" - this young man doesn't have an honest or sincere BONE in his entire body! {Check out his website - It's all about JORDAN!}

Brother, you "can bet your bottom dollar" that Jordan already knows about Origen, and is just going to "play along" or "string you along" (and others) until he sees the right moment to "pounce" and display his cunning craftiness for all to see (once again).

The following are "Jordan's" two previous Threads. {Please Consider: "THIS" from an 18 year old BOY! (at the time)}:

Jordan's Thread #1. <> 05-07-2008 09:52 PM <> Help Me <> http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...91&postcount=1
Please read through the Thread carefully (Too long to reproduce here) and see how this young man craftily asks "QUESTIONS" - to which he ALREADY KNOWS THE ANSWERS TO!


One day AFTER what "appears" to be a "SINCERE" plea for "HELP" (Jordan's Thread #1. <> "Help Me" ) - "Jordan" Posted the following Thread:

Jordan's Thread #2<> 05-08-2008 10:34 PM <> Some People Should Realize... <> http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...50&postcount=1 Jordan's Post #4 <> 05-09-2008 01:46 AM <> Some People Should Realize...
Jordan's Post #6 <> 05-09-2008 03:31 AM <> Some People Should Realize...
Jordan's Post #11 <> 05-09-2008 12:15 PM <> Some People Should Realize...
Jordan's Post #12 <> 05-09-2008 01:07 PM <> Some People Should Realize...
Jordan's Post #14 <> 05-09-2008 04:42 PM <> Some People Should Realize...
AFTER several people made various comments, Jordan posted Posts #21, #24, #26, #28, and #29 - (all very short and of no consequence). He then came out and revealed his "true colors" with his Post #31 (Notice the time lapse between his Post #29 and His Post #31. What do you suppose that our "young lad" was doing for that month? Hmmm?):

Jordan's Post #31 <> 06-08-2008, 06:33 PM <> Some People Should Realize...
This young man is one of the most deceptive young persons I have ever dealt with. I have met very few people of his age with so much "guile". If you read through his two previous Threads you can see how he "played" many of us, who at the beginning tried to truly "help" him. (However it didn't take some of us very long before we discovered "WHERE he was coming from")

Jordan's last Post was on 06-08-2008. After being thoroughly repudiated and rebuked (see Posts), he hadn't posted anything for approximately 10 months, until his newest "foray" (QUESTIONS - ALWAYS LOADED QUESTIONS! Read his clever "questions" carefully!) onto the Forum {Jordan's Thread: "Alexandrian Texts"}.

Unless this young man has repented and turned from his deceitful ways (which he hasn't publicly made known here), then he is just "baiting" whoever he can into another fruitless and unproductive debate.

Look at his "QUESTION": IF on the face of his "question" - "Jordan" CANNOT SEE that REMOVING God's WORDS from the Scriptures is WRONG, who amongst us here on the Forum are going to convince him otherwise? Hmmm? This kind of "discernment" is taught by the Holy Spirit - NOT men; and as long as this young man is determined to "find errors" in the Holy Bible, he will never understand WHY REMOVING God's WORDS from the HOLY Scriptures is not only "WRONG", but it is EVIL!

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him. {This applies to BOYS & YOUNG MEN ALSO!}

Don't make accusations about me if you don't even know me.

[George]

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

After visiting Jordans website I can confirm his insincerity in his posts, particularly when he asked about what group of KJV only he would fit into himself, which is a deceitful statement in its own right because this exert of his OWN website clearly marks his own beliefs as ANTI KJB

Your Video by the way contains the same old tired arguments apostate Bible correctors have been using against the Bible, and EVERY one is easily answered and refuted.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Try at least to be honest and open if you are to call yourself a Born again Child of God, not underhand and deceitful.

Aloha brother Steven,

I gave up trying to deal with this deceptive young man in June of 2008. { AV1611 Bible Forums > Bible Versions > "Some people Should Realize" . Post#35 - http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5589&postcount=35 } Unless he ever has a change of heart, there is absolutely no sense in trying to reason with him. Like I said before:

"Should you have any doubt about the pervasive influence of a Humanistic “education” and the perverse results in a young man’s life – look no further than “Jordan”. And if you want to see what the “definition” of a “sophist” is and how he operates read on."

It is quite obvious that he has not changed his "mode of operation" (he is still as deceitful as he was nearly a year ago - perhaps even more so) and that is one reason why I refuse to even Post anything directly to him.

[Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.]

The last time "Jordan" was on the Forum he stirred up controversy. The minute he begins to post again (after a 10 month hiatus), he is right back doing the same exact thing again!

[Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.]

Just a final comment: Please notice how he mis-"USED" the Scripture in Matthew Chapter 7.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

He took the verse OUT OF CONTEXT TO PROVE A "PRETEXT"! Just exactly like all Bible deniers have done for centuries. he didn't FORGET the rest of the CONTEXT - he purposely left the next verse out, that completed the principle, or the precept that the the Lord was trying to convey:

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

The teaching is perfectly clear - and it's NOT that we are NOT TO JUDGE! It's - we had better be real CAREFUL when we DO judge; and NOT judge matters that we aren't familiar with. As a matter of fact in another Scripture the Lord Jesus Christ clearly commands us NOT to judge according to APPEARANCE - but TO JUDGE "RIGHTEOUS" JUDGMENT!

[John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.]

The Apostle Paul also said that we should "Judge".

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life ?

1 Corinthians 10:15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

I have "judged" what Jordan has said (written), and I find a young man so full of guile and deceit, that he cannot SEE the blindness of his own heart. Whenever I meet "Christians" like this I always think of what Peter said to Simon (the sorcerer). Remember: The Scriptures say that Simon "BELIEVED ALSO" [Acts 8:13], but Peter told him:

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

I cannot judge whether Jordan is saved or not, But I can judge that this young man is "in the bond of iniquity", and unless he repents of his attitude towards God's Holy word, no genuine Bible believer is going to take him seriously, or want to have anything to do with him.

What kind of a fool is it, who "CORRECTS" God's FINAL AUTHORITY, while all the while "professing" to believe "the Bible"? Even though I have encountered these kinds of "Christians" for over 40 years, I still "marvel" at the "results" of what a godless, atheistic, Humanistic education has had on children, and on their hearts and minds; and how HUMANISM has "affected" and "influenced" so many "Christian" young people these days, to the point where they CANNOT even discern between good and evil! "

Proverbs 29:20 Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

[Jordan]

Alright. Well I am not coming back to this place, that's for sure, I don't feel like being around hateful, legalistic people.