[atlas]

Brother Tim,

I already have told you what I thought was funny.

When I said this is funny, I said so because at the time you had only made 4 post. All of them anti Ruckman.

You just did not like my reply.

Atlas

[Brother Tim]

One last post before I go to work:
I assume that your choice not to directly answer my two questions tells me this:
1. You are a decent person, and therefore cannot condone his tasteless jokes.
2. You are such a strong supporter of him that you cannot bring yourself to publicly criticize him, even when he is clearly wrong.

I accept this, in will not further offend you by discussing Dr. Ruckman.

[atlas]

Brother Tim,

You are such a strong supporter of him that you cannot bring yourself to publicly criticize him, even when he is clearly wrong.

I disagree with him on a number of issues, I will not however say he is not a decent man as you have done.

I assume that your choice not to directly answer my two questions tells me this:

I did tell you what I thought was funny. You questioned what I thought was funny and I told you. Unless you acknowledge that answer we can not move to you next question.

I have not been offended. I have just had a good laugh not at the joke but at you, that is all. I still am laughing by the way. I was wondering if you could find something valid to bring up. I know you can't and that is what is so funny. You went to read the BBB to try and dig up some kind of dirt. The dirt you found was so lame and you are making a big deal about it. That is what is so funny.

I accept this, in will not further offend you by discussing Dr. Ruckman.

If you ever find anything you want to discuss about Ruckman bring it on. Just make sure it is not so lame next time. get something worth talking about. This has been the whole point of my post. The English make fun of the French all of the time. When I was in NYC it was the same about Canada or NJ. In Texas it is the folks from OK. We all make fun of each other all of the time. It is not a big deal. You think it is and that is what is so funny. I guess in FL they do not Have GA or AL jokes. IN NC it is always the WV folks that get it.

Have a good day at work. When you come back go find something to nail Ruckman on. Then we can and will talk about it.



Atlas

[George]

It seems that there are a couple of brothers here that have an extreme personal dislike for brother Ruckman. This animosity towards a fellow Christian, a brother in Christ, must be based on something.

I wonder whether he has insulted them or their wives or their children personally or has he perhaps insulted someone that they admire?

I will have more to say on this matter later.

I am not against Ruckman as a person, but against his teachings - which I am commanded to critique in light of God's Word.

[Brother Tim]

Bother George, I would distinguish between animosity and rebuke. I hold no personal dislike for any other believer, but I am responsible before God to speak against actions by brethren that hinder the effect of the Gospel.

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

[George]

Aloha brothers Tim (and Jerry),

I owe you and brother Jerry an apology (sincerely). The word "animosity" is too strong a word to use to describe your dislike of brother Ruckman, and so I apologize - for I don't believe that you hate him.

I try real hard to make clear distinctions between words: for instance - when it comes to an "elders' or "pastors" Duties, Responsibilities, and Authority - the Bible clearly demonstrates what these are:

SCRIPTURAL DUTIES & RESPONSIBILITIES OF: {an elder-pastor}

PERSONAL (Inward)

1. PRAYER [Addressed - to God]

2. STUDY [Scriptures – from God]

CONGREGATIONAL (Outward)

3. PREACHING [FEEDING - The Word of God]

4. TEACHING [FEEDING - Convincing, Exhorting - Sound Doctrine & the Whole Council of God]

SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY & LIMITS OF: {an elder-pastor}

5. WARNING [Against: Leaven (False Doctrine), Philosophy, Vain Deceit, the Traditions of Men, Science-Falsely-so-called, and the Rudiments of the World, etc.]

6. ADMONISHING [Advise, Caution, or Notify of a Fault]

7. REPROVING [To Refute, Disprove, or Convince of a Fault or to Make It Manifest]

8. REBUKING [To reprehend for faults; to chide, chasten, check, restrain or silence]

Headings 5-8 above describe the absolute LIMITS OF PASTORAL AUTHORITY. All matters of Discipline within a church are to be administered by the whole body (the congregation-1Corinthians 5:1-13) – NOT an individual elder-pastor, or a board of deacons, or any other extra-scriptural council or committee.

In the early church there was no clergy–laity set up as in almost all modern day churches. There was no one individual “pastor” over the church, or in the larger churches – a “senior pastor”; “assistant pastors”; “youth pastor”; “Choir Director”; or so-called “Christian Counsellors” - dispensing pagan philosophy within the church, or today’s’ modern equivalent - Humanism, Psychiatry, & Psychology.

The leaders in the early church were called elders and were always plural in number and they shared whatever power and authority they had – equally. No division existed between the congregation and elders-pastors. [They (elders-pastors and the congregation) all were brethren – with no distinctions!]

An elder (pastor) is not to exercise dominion over the brethren or over their faith! [2Corinthians 1:24]

Notice the difference between warning, admonishing, reproving, and rebuking. In 50 years of being a Christian I personally have hardly ever "rebuked" a brother in Christ. I will try all of the others first - and often times will not issue a rebuke even if the others fail.

Yours for Him and for His Holy word,
George

[atlas]

Brother Tim,

but I am responsible before God to speak against actions by brethren that hinder the effect of the Gospel.

How is Dr. Ruckman " hindering the effect of the Gospel? "

Is it his 800 member church?
It is his Bible College that has put thousands in the field working for God?
Have his books ( seven foot shelf ) hindered the Gospel?

I know the Bibles says.

1 Tim. 5:1

1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;

You also seemed to pull that one verse out of context. The elders are the one that should rebuke. This is talking about the local church. So the next time you go to your local church and someone gets out of line. You need to stand up in front of everyone and rebuke them in front of everyone. That way others will fear.

1Tim. 5:17 - 20

17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

I think Dr. Ruckman fits well into verse number 17.

17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

We know by his works ( 7 foot shelf ) that he has laboured in the word and doctrine.

25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

Atlas

[Brother Tim]

Brother George,
First, I accept your apology, although no offense was taken by your words. I just wanted to clarify my position. Additionally I do not dislike Dr. Ruckman, I dislike the words that he has used and the jokes that he has printed.

Thank you for the detailed listing of the very similar words. Using your definitions, the following might qualify, and I seek your further help:

Admonish: (Advise, Caution, or Notify of a Fault) While I am certain that others have done this, perhaps I should communicate with him about the way that he sometimes refers to fellow believers, and the jokes printed in his newsletter that are in poor taste. Am I justified in doing this, in your opinion?

Reprove: (To Refute, Disprove, or Convince of a Fault or to Make It Manifest) It would appear that this word could be used for what I have done with previous posts. This may be a better word to use than rebuke, however ...

Rebuke: (To reprehend for faults; to chide, chasten, check, restrain or silence) While restraining or silencing him isn't expected, I do feel the need to speak out (reprehend or chide?) concerning his faults, because they have affected others like myself who accept the KJB as the Final Authority, and are then shackled with being called "Ruckmanites" and are linked to these same faults.

I do agree that the local church is the place where correction must take place, as long as that behavior is limited to affecting the local church. Just as Paul spoke out against Peter in public, yea, even writing it in a letter (post?), we should be able to express concern for the actions of others when they cross the line.

Dr. Ruckman could be compared to David. Though David was "a man after God's own heart", his enemies could always point to his failures and mock him. Dr. Ruckman has been a warrior in a very rough battle. Because of this, his flaws are amplified, and the fallout has brought harm to all of the rest of us who stand for the same things.

Finally, I am an elder-pastor and as such I feel qualified to speak as I have. I apologize for the offense that some may take at my words, but they are written with fear and trembling before God, not out of anger toward Dr. Ruckman or anyone else.

May God's grace be with you,

[geologist]

For the record, I think that people who object to Dr. Ruckman's sense of humor, and decry his "foul" language, are a bunch of pious, thin skinned nannys. Dr. Ruckman was an infantry officer, played in bars with jazz bands, was raised Catholic and was a real hell raiser before he was saved in a radio station studio where he was working as a DJ. He has a much better grasp on REAL human behavior, and the depravity of unsaved mankind, than most of you reading and posting here. I too came from a similar background and understand why the man talks like he does. I respect him for that. I know where he has been. Most of you havn't seen the uglier side of life, or you would understand where he is coming from.

Having said that, I don't agree with everything the man says. And to be honest, I too think he goes a little over the top sometimes. But, you know what? He calls a spade a spade. He gets people's attention and he's not afraid to speak his mind and tell it like it is. And I personally would rather hear a real man telling it like it is, than some sissy voiced, half effemenant, politically correct preacher spouting cliches and singing cumba ya.

The Lord has called each of us to be fishers of men. You don't snage sharks and baracuddas with frilly little pretty hand tied trout flies. You toss out some bloody meat if you want to get the bad fish. Each of us has a calling and the Lord calls all types to His service. Who are you to critize what the Lord has raised up in Peter Ruckman? He will stand or fall to the Master. And if you don't like this kind of plain speaking, then stick your head in a bucket three times and pull it out twice.

Here endeth the sermon.