[Mathew Ward]

Originally Posted by Luke

Why would it mean that..

You would have to be B.O. to believe that (Byzantine Only) or something else. And that stinks!

The TR is a greek New Testament. IT has nothing to do with the old testament. And so to be TRO, would also mean one rejects the OT. So TRO doesn't exist. Really, TRO is scholarship-only when it comes down to it, even if they prefer the KJB as an english translation (which would negate the ONLY bit of the TRO).

TYVM!

Why would being Byzantine Only stink? What NT MSS did the KJ translators use in their work of translating the Bible into English? To be a supporter of where our Bible has come from and to study the history behind it, one would have to be a supporter of a greek MSS line don't you think?

As far as the OT is concerned not much debate there...

[bibleprotector]

The problem with being "Byzantine Only" is that such a view would neglect to take into account other ancient witnesses, such as the Latin. Also, the King James Bible is "Protestant", so being "Byzantine-only" would be a handicap.

The big problem is that there is no single Textus Receptus Edition (or Majority Text-type) which is perfect. No extant edition taken on its own is fit to be "final standard". However, if we take the KJB as standard, that is an entirely different matter. In fact, when taken collectively, there is no “consensus” on what actually is “the perfect Greek”, or how it is to be formed.

Those who support "the original languages" over and above the English Bible which we actually hold in our hands are in a weaker position. The reality is that no Scripture limits preservation to the original languages only, but indicates that the Word of God would go forth to the nations. The nations are not speaking Greek, so I think it is much more consistent to believe that God is using the KJB, which is demonstrably perfect, to reach nations.

[Greektim]

If the question is whether I have the complete Word of God...I would answer yes. I don't think you need "a COLLECTION of what you consider to be reliable translations" to have the complete Word of God. I don't think you need any translations to have the Word of God.

If I missed any questions, please let me know. I am sure there will be more detail and dialogue with my answers so...I'll just wait.

[Mathew Ward]

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

However, if we take the KJB as standard, that is an entirely different matter.

Dr. D.A. Waite will tell you the #1 reason for the superiority of the KJV is: The King James Bible Has Superior Original Language Texts.

Since God has promised to preserve his Word (which would also include the original languages) as well as to the translation, then it is just as important to identify this family of manuscripts that God has preserved His word in.

So the standard would be 1st - The Word in Heaven, 2nd - As Originally Given, 3rd - As preserved by God (MSS) and 4th - By the translation.

[Luke]

Why is the translation below the preservation?

Surely if preservation stops with another language, verses in the Bible are not even preserved, even in the originals

What do you make of Accts 21:40 in relation to Acts 22 (whole chapter).

[Mathew Ward]

Originally Posted by Luke

Why is the translation below the preservation?

Surely if preservation stops with another language, verses in the Bible are not even preserved, even in the originals

What do you make of Accts 21:40 in relation to Acts 22 (whole chapter).

Because without MSS preservation there is no translation.

I never said that preservation stops with translation...

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Mathew Ward

As has been said...King James Version Preferred...

Thank you, to you and greek Tim both.

Grace and peace

Tony

Originally Posted by Greektim

If the question is whether I have the complete Word of God...I would answer yes. I don't think you need "a COLLECTION of what you consider to be reliable translations" to have the complete Word of God. I don't think you need any translations to have the Word of God.

Thanks for finally answering, even though your reply seems to contradict your first reply to Winman. Now for the important questions:
What do you consider the COMPLETE WORD OF GOD for today's believer, and what is you FINAL AUTHORITY on doctrine and spiritual matters? Please do not answer with a cop out like "THE BIBLE" because we are way beyond that here, and we would expect to know exactly WHICH BIBLE you consider the complete Word of God for today's believer.

[George]

Aloha Brother Matthew Ward,

I took a brief look at your “Blog”, and I liked what I read.

I agree with your take on “Personal Discipleship”.

As to: “Guilt, Fear & Intimidation” - I have taught for several years that many “leaders” (pastors/elders) in today’s “Fundamentalist” churches are not only using “worldly methods” to win the lost, they also are adopting the world’s “TACTICS” to keep the brethren “in line”: The world (governments, institutions, religions, etc.) primarily uses FEAR - INTIMIDATION and COERCION; and if these fail, they will resort to – FORCE! I believe, as I think you do, that none of these “tactics” have any place in Biblical Christianity.

As to your concerns over: “KJVO vs. MV … will there ever be a cease fire?” I think that you might be a bit naïve on this issue. I believe that you are sincere in desiring to see peace within the body of Christ, and that your motive for wanting “UNITY” amongst believers is good; but after having been a King James Bible believer since 1968, I can tell you that there is absolutely NO CHANCE that there will be a “cease fire” between the two “camps”.

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

The only way that there will ever be “UNITY” between us and the MV’ers, is IF one of us COMPROMISES! And as far as I personally am concerned – that will never happen on my part, and I am pretty sure that it won’t happen on their part (at least most of them).

This is an “issue” that will only be “settled” at the judgment seat of Christ. Although people on both sides of the issue are “sincere”, we both cannot be right - one of us is wrong – terribly wrong; and God will reveal (and “deal”) with those who are wrong at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Until then, the battle of “Which Bible?” and WHAT constitutes God’s FINAL AUTHORITY on earth will continue, unabated, as it has ever since W&H introduced their corrupt “Greek Text” upon which the “great grand-daddy” of all modern versions (MV’s) was based, i.e. the “original” English “Revised Version”.

I ask that you ponder this one thing (at least for now): If you will notice – we have a steady stream of MV’ers who join our little Forum, and who (once they "join" up) are constantly “baiting” us; drawing us into “arguments” and “debates”; and generally making a nuisance of themselves, trying to undermine our faith in the King James Bible. My question is: WHY is it that they continually COME HERE (on our Forum) and engage in these destructive “tactics”; and those of us here on the AV1611 Forums refuse to go to THERE (to their Forum) and engage in the very same nefarious “tactics”?

Just exactly WHAT is it that “compels” them to COME HERE and stir up trouble? And WHY is it that we DO NOT DO THE SAME? WHAT do they hope to “accomplish” by COMING HERE? WHAT is their MOTIVE for COMING HERE? Is it to EDIFY the brethren, or is it to DIVIDE us, or worse - possibly DESTROY us?

Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

2 Corinthians 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

Romans 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.

I leave it up to you to “judge”. Are those of us on the AV1611 Forums trying to DESTROY the brethren’s faith in the Holy words of God? Are we trying to “edify” and “build up” the brethren, or are we trying to “destroy” and “tear down”? You decide.

It is my sincere desire that you will be able to settle this matter in your heart and mind; and that the belief and conviction you settle on will be from God, and NOT from man.

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Thanks for finally answering, even though your reply seems to contradict your first reply to Winman. Now for the important questions:
What do you consider the COMPLETE WORD OF GOD for today's believer, and what is you FINAL AUTHORITY on doctrine and spiritual matters? Please do not answer with a cop out like "THE BIBLE" because we are way beyond that here, and we would expect to know exactly WHICH BIBLE you consider the complete Word of God for today's believer.

Greektim, front and center... did you miss my post above?